Origins of Rock in Rio: 

Maria Alice Medina discusses the origins of Rock in Rio, a festival that became a cultural icon over 40 years. She highlights the political and social context of Brazil at the time, as well as the influence of her ex-husband Roberto Medina in the conception of the event.

Challenges and Initial Strategies: 

She recounts the initial challenges of convincing international artists to participate in the first Rock in Rio and the creative strategies they used to overcome skepticism and attract big names, resulting in Queen being the first band to confirm.

Growth and Evolution of the Festival: 

Medina discusses how Rock in Rio grew from an event with 45 bands to a global phenomenon with multiple stages and hundreds of acts, remaining adaptable to changes in the entertainment world and true to its original purpose.

Pillars of Rock in Rio's Success: 

She highlights the importance of professionalism, focus, and purpose in the continuous success of the festival, also mentioning the trust and safety that the event offers to the audience, regardless of its location.

Personal Experience and Lessons from the Camino de Santiago: Medina shares her personal experience on the Camino de Santiago, describing it as a journey of self-discovery and transformation, and how this journey can provide valuable insights for entrepreneurs seeking a balance between personal and professional life.

Integration of Life Lessons into the Business World: 

She discusses how the lessons learned on the Camino de Santiago can be integrated into the business world, promoting a more humane, simplified, and connected vision, essential for any entrepreneur.

Changes in the Perception of the Camino Over the Centuries: Medina reflects on how the perception and purpose of the Camino de Santiago have changed from its inception in the Middle Ages to modern times, transforming from a strictly religious route to a path of personal and spiritual discovery.

Preservation of the Camino's Purpose and Modern Challenges: 

Finally, she addresses the modern challenges faced by the Camino de Santiago, including the rise of tourism and physical changes to the path, emphasizing the importance of maintaining the original purpose of the camino and the value of an authentic pilgrim experience.

Dreamers and doers, welcome to Podbrand, a podcast about design, strategy and innovation.

I am Maurício Medeiros, mentor, creative consultant in strategic design and author of the book Arvore da Marca, Simplifying Branding.

Today we close 2023 with mastery and that passes between the contemporary and the historical, embracing themes of spirituality and entrepreneurship.

Let's explore the origin and evolution of the Caminho de Santiago, a pilgrimage route that, since its roots in the medieval tradition, has transformed over the centuries into a path of self-knowledge and personal transformation.

Our guest today, Maria Alice Medina, was also part of the group that put Brazil on the global stage of showbiz.

She is an undisputed witness to the creation of rock in Rio and author of the book Do Rock a Compostela, where she recounts her two-decade experiences along the Caminho de Santiago.

With a journey that goes from its participation at the origin of the largest music festival in the world to its introspective pilgrimages, Maria Alice offers a unique look at the intersection between the business world and the spiritual journey.

Throughout this episode, we will map out how Maria Alice's experiences on Rock in Rio and on the Caminho de Santiago intertwine, offering valuable insights on resilience, reinvention and the search for harmony between mind and spirit.

Maria Alice, welcome!

Thank you, Maurício.

It's good that we have this vehicle to connect.

Me in Lisbon, you in Thailand, and it seems that we are so close, right?

With the same purpose.

I thank you very much.

That's good, we can talk about what is my passion.

I am very happy that you have touched on this topic and provoked me in this direction.

It's great.

That's good, I'm very happy.

I thank you for accepting the invitation.

It's a pleasure to have you today at Podbrand.

This is our episode that marks 2023, our second season.

Entering the theme, Maria Alice, you were part of the origin of Rock in Rio, the largest festival of experiences in music in the world, and it brings a unique perspective on the pillars of success of this event, let's say monumental.

Over the decades, Rock in Rio has not only emerged as a cultural icon, but it has also adapted and evolved, facing changes in the global scenario of music and entertainment.

The history of the festival is a lesson in innovation, resilience and passion, essential elements for any successful undertaking.

So I ask you, how was the experience of convincing the great names of music in the world to perform at the first Rock in Rio, I think 40 years ago?

In your view, what are the pillars that have established Rock in Rio as the largest music festival in the world over the decades?

Maurício, as you just said, Rock in Rio is 40 years old and like any life, it is built, we are not born ready.

So I'm going to try to put together a little bit of everything, otherwise the story gets too long.

So I was married to Roberto Medina, the father of my children, and we were in a moment of transition in Brazil, in the political transition, where business was not easy for you to do.

There was an in-between between one thing and another that I didn't quite understand how it was going to happen, how it was and how it could be.

And Roberto is the son of a family that traditionally did things.

My beloved father-in-law, Abraham Medina, was a great benefactor of the city of Rio de Janeiro, at a time when politics interfered much less in the city.

So he, for example, a quick thing, when the Flamengo burial was held with the Burle Max Gardens, he would have the pipe car watered and then he would tell the governor that he had had it watered.

He would make the biggest Christmas parades, as we know them today from Disney.

It wasn't that much, of course, but it was that he crossed the city, he lit up the trees, he lit up the posts.

That was a fascination, I was a girl, I remember him as an entrepreneur, until I met Roberto as an adult.

So Roberto grew up in this family that thinks about society, thinks about how he participates in society, how it is to give joy to others, and naturally in the blood.

He was always a very creative person, and he wanted to do things.

We had already brought Sinatra to sing in Maracanã in the 80s, then we took Barry White to Rio, we took Bott Baccarat, Julio Iglesias had already gone to Rio, I don't know how many times.

When he went with us, that's when all the news came out, he would go to the beach, imagine, before we met.

So we had already done very important things, but there was this in-between, between entrepreneurship and political will, or it was all very, in fact, as it is now in New Brazil, red or black, black or red, green or red, right or left, there is no middle.

We were in that moment when there was no middle, and he was not able to do the things he wanted, new projects, but he is always very creative, very innovative, and in a conversation, I always wanted to live abroad, I need to declare it here.

My children were small, Roberta, who lives here, is now the president of Rock in Rio, Brazil and Europe, at that time she was five years old, and I used to tell him, let's go, it's boring, the country is like this, let's go, the children are small, the adaptation will be easier.

And no, but my country, my city, I had this patriotism, which, by the way, is this, because I live there to this day.

And then what happened was that, in a more fierce conversation, I said to him, look, you can't do it for the city, do it for the country, and let's go without guilt.

And I went to sleep, I left him angry there, because he is a nino, he doesn't like to be angry, of course.

He took a pull and I went to sleep, and from time to time I looked from the top of the house to the living room, and he was there on the couch, thinking.

Early in the morning, when he called me, he said, look, I already know what we are going to do.

I say, okay, it was all in the plural, so it's okay.

He said, look, I already know what we are going to do.

At that time, we were almost 20 years old, about 15 years old, and he said, let's do the biggest music festival in the world.

Okay, so how do you do it?

Oh, I don't know.

Now we have to start thinking.

So what did we do?

We went to the radios, who is it that sings what, who is it that matters, who is it that can be of value.

Then we went to the television, which was the time of Walter Clarke, Bonnie, Joe Warnik, that old class.

So, do you want to participate?

Could you broadcast?

Okay, so what does TV Globo think about Ibope?

Who is it that we have to go after?

That's how it was.

At that time, we had already gotten very close to Sérgio Mendes, who had lived in California for many years, who was a person with a lot of activity too, for us to get close to Sinatra's team.

And that's how we, a month later, we had to go out, I had a list of businessmen and artists, and I was going to knock on the door and say, oh, this is Maurício, you represent I don't know who, so I'm from Brazil, and it was a big mess, because at that time, he and I were, I don't know, in our thirties, and people thought that was nuts, two kids who were not going to do anything, and I had brought a model, I had brought perspectives, we opened an apartment in Beverly Wilshire, where we were staying, and one apartment was for the office and one was for us, for the dwelling.

So, the walls were those thousands of drawings explaining how it was, how the stage was, because Roberto also has a detail, Roberto doesn't work with little.

So, we got the land, borrowed, which was a project to last at least five or ten years, at that first moment, there in Rio Centro, in the private land of Otocarlos Carvalho, Carvalho Rosken, who was a friend of the family and who gave up the land that needed work, so we had an important investment to put it up, but if you have any idea, the stage of the first Rock in Rio had 5,000 meters of usable area, there were three stages, because one of the things that Roberto always wanted was that there was no delay, that traditional delay of the bride, traditional delay of the show, that could not happen.

So, while someone was performing, two were getting ready, and the stages were on trails, it was an extraordinary technology.

Anyway, we stayed a month in New York, listening to No, No, No, No, No.

Then we went to Los Angeles, it was almost 20 days of No, No, No, No, No.

And Roberto one day told me, he was walking down the street thinking, thinking, how to do it, how to do it, and he said, look, let's go, this thing is not going to work, come on, I'm tired, again I shook my head and said, look, it's going to happen, it may not happen at the time you want, at those ten to four in the afternoon, on a sunny Wednesday, but it will happen.

So, we have to break our heads and find what to do.

And the idea we had, which was Salvadora, was to talk to Milton Rudin, who was Sinatra's attorney, who had become a great friend of ours.

Mickey has already made his passage.

His wife is my American sister to this day, Mary Carol, and they have credibility, we didn't.

They became so friends and so grateful for the work we did for Sinatra in Maracanã and at the hotel, and we said, Mickey, if you call a press conference, the people come, and if I call, no one comes, because they don't know who it is.

And he agreed, he thought it was a good idea, he called, the next day there were 20 vehicles there, and he said, I want to introduce you to the Medina couple, who did the biggest show of Sinatra's life, with 160,000 payers in Maracanã, we presented the project, and the next day it filled the news media, and the first person who called us at the hotel saying he wanted to, who had already said no, back there, was Jim Beach, who was Quinn's manager.

And when Jim Beach and Quinn wanted, I also, I also, I also, I also, then it made a mess.

The first band to confirm was Quinn.

It was Quinn, it was Quinn, and Jim became a great friend of ours, then he came to my son's Bar Mitzvah, anyway, he came, no, he went to Brazil, to our celebrity and such, and with that, he opened a path for many bands to want, so we came back 20 days later to Brazil, already, for you to have an idea, it's incomparable, right, when we started the first Rock In Rio, at that time there were 45 bands, between Brazilians and foreigners, where each one played twice, so today, the last Rock in Rio in Brazil, last year, 2022, had nine stages.

I don't know how many bands there are anymore, there are at least 200 bands, I don't know, and you can imagine what the logistics of managing is, right?

Of course, adaptations have already happened, nowadays it's the artist who pays for his hotel and for the things he wants, extraordinary things, back then it wasn't like that, Prince, when he went to the second Rock in Rio, in 1991, it was still in Maracanã, he took a lot, he took 120 guests.

All costed by Rock in Rio.

Then you will say, well, it's impossible, but we made it impossible, right?

Your question is that Rock in Rio is the biggest festival, Rock in Rio was born with a very big purpose, and we almost go back to the beginning of your question, it was at a time of transition in Brazil, it was at a time of dissatisfaction of Roberto, who took advantage of his creativity, but the intention, the purpose of Rock in Rio, the birth of Rock in Rio, was to make a movement where we showed that Brazil is not Tupiniquim, that Brazil doesn't have monkeys and snakes walking on the street, which by the way is not the capital of Argentina, right?

And in order to use music as an element of union or element of peace, because music is the homeland, right?

When everyone sings an Arabic song, an Indian song, a Bahia song, it's the music, it's not the people, right?

So the purpose was to use music as an instrument of peace, and I believe that through professionalism, through focus, through a purpose that was never different, it hasn't changed, it can have, it certainly has, the way of working has changed, the learnings that come from a challenge of this size, the changes in the world, the necessary technical changes, adaptive, so today it is the biggest music festival in the world, yes, but it was born in the head, in the first purpose, to make the biggest festival in the world, but it only perpetuated itself through professionalism, through purpose, it's not just because everyone wants to go there and see, that's not it, right?

So we were happy to have, in that first one, which was 10 days in a row, when Rock in Rio ended, the entire board of directors was sick, all of them, heart attack, a lot of confusion.

So today it is the biggest, and it continues with its purpose, so I think it is this credibility that it has acquired, be it in security, be it in what we deliver in the proposal and in the promise to the public, that makes all the difference, so if it is in Lisbon, everyone wants to go.

In 2015 it was done in Las Vegas, it was there, the whole world, two editions in Spain, 2008, 2010, it was there.

Why didn't it continue?

Because there are the interests of the company, I am no longer with the company, but my codename of Mother of Rock is not just because I am the mother of Roberto's children, it's because I was there at the beginning, we were four people in Los Angeles, four, me, him and two directors, one director who has already passed on, it was Oscar Einstein, who was a Brazilian-German gentleman, who was in relations with Pocahontas Palace for 20 years, and who was a gentleman, a true ambassador, and for two 32-year-olds it made all the difference to have a gentleman by their side.

It brought credibility.

And to know how to behave, and some things that we, some bands with languages ​​that we didn't speak, I speak Spanish and English very well, but there were other people there to speak, the German, even in not understanding, he was ahead.

And the fourth person was Luiz Oscar Niemeyer, who was a very dear employee of ours, a very dear friend to this day, who later left the company and went to do Hollywood Rock, and moved his life to the other side, but there were four of us, the true Branca Leone Army, believing that we were going to do the biggest music festival in the world.

So, for this will, for this purpose, I think he stays, and that he has the deserved success, because he grew up, he expanded, he not only grew up, he became gigantic, and in reality it is an event that deserves the applause, it is an event that deserves the recognition of the public.

The public knows that it is safe, the public knows that it gets stuck a little, but it's not a problem, it will come out, because the logistics and refinement of...

For you to have an idea, just a detail, in Rio de Janeiro, which now occupies the Olympic Park, it's huge, there, in Rio, there are 110,000 people per night, here in Lisbon there are 85,000.

In Rio, for 110,000 people working, there are more or less 25,000, 27,000 people working per night.

They are not ours, they are customers, they are sponsors, they are volunteers, they are technicians, but it's a lot of people.

So, for it to work, for it to come in and out, there is a whole care that, when we play the music, when the fireworks end and the audience lights up, it's to give security, it's to give tranquility, care artifacts with our audience where it really makes a difference.

So, the set of care and the purpose...

Today, Rock in Rio has ISO, I don't know what, number 21, and all zero carbon, tree planting in the Amazon, and all the social work we do, music rooms, supplementary study, music rooms in the favelas.

Now, in São Paulo, The Town did a rehabilitation of a favela that was a scandal, those gray houses and woods, everything is colorful, it looks like a snake's work, you know?

Something extraordinary.

So, it gives self-esteem, it gives a charm of participation.

Here in Lisbon, too, when we arrived at Bela Vista Park, the neighborhood is a social neighborhood, close by.

At that time, Rock in Rio is celebrating its 20th anniversary in Portugal, next year.

At that time, people who worked in that social place were hired to come and work in Rock's work.

So, we already make an integration, an interaction that reduces social distance.

So, these are small details where we have this look at the other, and I speak in the plural because I can't help but remember that I'm Rock's mother, so I'm really very proud, although I don't work there, I don't have a connection with the company, but I have three children, each one is president of a core of the family group.

So, I'm on the inside, and Rock's mother only has one, right?

Certainly!

If it were good, everyone would have more than one, right?

The mother is a boring animal, so I'm Rock's mother, patience, it's me.

It's a wonderful experience, and Rock in Rio, from your testimony, it still brings the essence of the idea of ​​the first event 40 years ago.

This is what gives the support for this success of this biggest festival on the planet, and that brings Brazil to the world, right?

An example of organization, of efficiency, of experience, built even by the musicians, they must feel pleasure in going there.

Nowadays, we already have this value, they almost adapt the agenda to be able to be in Rock.

Participate in the calendar.

Because there is also a detail, right?

Brazil is very far, right?

So, for them to go down, back there, the fees were much higher, because they went to that distance in Brazil that no one knows what it is.

Today, no.

Today, first, they have the interest to participate, from the media, from the public, etc., it's part of everyone's path.

And then, they can already do shows in other Latin American countries.

So, they schedule in a way that they can do a job, a tour, no matter how small it is, it doesn't have to be 10 countries, but they give a way to adapt the schedule.

Yesterday, they called me, but do you know if Coldplay will be at Rock in Rio next year, in Rio?

Then I asked, will it be?

No, it won't be.

It's not just because we don't want to, it's because maybe he can't either.

When you want an artist who is scheduled for something else, sometimes we can't, it's not that we don't want to take it.

If we had the management under everyone's schedule, it would be different.

Your journey on the path of Santiago, and what detail in your book, reflects a deep search for balance between mind and spirit.

This historical path, traveled by millions over the centuries, offers more than a religious experience, it is a path of self-knowledge and reflection, and in its case, integrating lessons from the path in the business world, offers valuable insights for entrepreneurs who seek harmony in their professional and personal lives.

So, based on your experience on the path of Santiago, how do you believe that this journey can contribute to the harmony between mind and spirit of an entrepreneur, and which specific lessons from the path can be applied in the business world?

Look, the theme of the path is, I think it is, nowadays it is more passionate than rock for me.

So, the path emerged in me also at the time of transition, and I made a choice, I chose to leave the world in which I lived to seek what was most similar to me.

In fact, Maurício, the path does not start when you step on the path, in Spain, in Portugal, in France.

The path begins with an appeal that comes from your heart.

It does not start at the door of your house, nor after a flight.

It starts inside you.

It took me 10 years to get on the path for the first time.

The path, nowadays, if we just talk about the path, it seems to be a product, as if people were going to visit the Coliseum of Rome.

I've never been there, I want to go.

No, the path is a process.

The path is walking, being in a place where people go to have the experience of walking long distances, for several days, it takes you to a place of inner silence that is very difficult, or almost impossible, no matter how meditative the person is, no matter how much yoga they do, no matter how much daily meditation they do.

In the jungle of the city, it is almost impossible.

So, if you observe the ritualistic dances of several religions, several nations, several ethnicities, most of them are made with the beating of the feet.

The feet alternate, each one in its own rhythm, each one in its own challenge.

We see on Instagram now the Africans dancing in a way that you don't know how the creature walks after that, it's brilliant.

So, this beating of the feet, in its own rhythm, daily, for a long period of hours, does an opening, an energetic work in its energetic centers, believe it or not.

You don't have to be neither Catholic, nor Buddhist, nor a spiritist, whatever, to believe.

This is what happens in our body, which leads us to a state of consciousness that is not ghostly, not miraculous, not for you to find the Virgin Mary sitting on a stone waiting for you.

That's not it.

But your internal state is transformed.

That's why I don't advise people to do this walk, whatever country it is, in three or four days.

Because you don't have time to leave a little bit of the baggage of the jungle, of the city, to surrender to that environment.

At the moment when you allow yourself, of course, an active entrepreneur, it's not easy to have 30 days, 30 and a few, to make the longest way, which is the way that leaves Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port in France, which is the last city on the border with Spain, or you can leave Roncesvalles, which is the last city in Spain on the border with France.

There, the big challenge is that in the middle there are the Pyrenees.

And the Pyrenees are 25, 27 kilometers of ascent on the first day.

So a lot of people want to go there because it's beautiful, beautiful, but it's a challenge.

For example, you can't leave Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port without being absolutely sure of the weather of that day up there.

It's not even that high, it's 1,400, 1,500 meters.

But up there there are winds of sometimes 90 kilometers per hour.

There's no tent, there's no tree for you to sit on, there's no bench for you to sit on.

You will pass by horses, sheep, cows, grass, meadows, but you have to go on.

Those who have doubts about their knees, it's better to leave Roncesvalles, which is already starting to descend.

Because you only have 30 days of knee problems.

So, an entrepreneur who can be there at this stage, or is doing a sabbatical, or wants to make the way and go to a meeting later somewhere, or left a meeting, I don't know where, and wants to be on the way.

Anything, like 15 days on the way, the very 10 days we make from the port to the top, are already transformative.

The only premise I insist on asking, here in Portugal I work as a consultant for the way.

I'm an ambassador in several segments, but one of the things I like to do is the consultancy for the way.

And I ask, do you want to go on the way?

Why?

Ah, because I heard that Spain is beautiful, the food is great, the wine.

So, I'd like to give you a suggestion, go to Bilbao, which has a beautiful museum, go to Granada, which is all red, visit Toledo, which is amazing, but don't go on the way.

The way is not touristic, it doesn't have that rule that you have to, you don't have to do anything.

The only thing that is worth calling attention to is surrendering to the way.

And surrendering to the way means going with a light baggage, it's really letting go of the masks that we are forced to wear in the big city, the preconceived patterns for you to accept yourself in a certain segment.

Those who don't surrender to the way, my dear, can't stand it.

And they can't stand it, it's not because they're 18, 20, everyone does what they want.

The French way, then, that crosses Spain through Navarra, Rioja, Cacilha, the way, it's not called Sound Break, it's not called French because it comes from France, it's called French because that's where Napoleon invaded Spain.

That's the first explanation.

So, there, or any other, any Portuguese, inside Spain, there are a lot of ways, but who goes on a walk like that and doesn't surrender, sleeping one night in each bed, one night with each pillow, when there is a pillow, it's already a good thing too, eating a food that is not yours, taking a shower that is not in your bathroom, on the fifth day you can't stand it, because you have to deal with the body's pain, you have to deal with adaptability, you have to deal with acceptance.

These are challenging things.

So, I believe that the entrepreneur is the person who really undertakes for society.

Everyone should make their way, they should allow themselves this detachment, this simplicity, this new way of opening their senses, of clarifying their mind, allowing themselves not to take their headphones, not to use their cell phone, to bear the anxiety of knowing the news, to bear the anxiety of giving news, to bear the anxiety of publishing, I'm here, I ate this, I ate that.

Because when you allow yourself to be in that place, it's not always just silence.

Some passages have a lot of movement, there are many groups nowadays, unfortunately, there are people who like to sing, there are people who like to play.

I, as I'm always alone, when I want to, and I like people, so, to talk and to gluten, it's very easy.

When I want to be alone, I'll let you know.

Look, tomorrow I'll leave earlier, or I'll let you go, I'll go after you, we'll meet along the way.

I've been walking once with a lady, who when she got to Sarria, which is 115 km to Compostela, she said, look, I want to let you know that from now on I only speak in Compostela.

Okay.

No, I promised myself that the last 100 km I will pray the rosary every day for all my friends.

Okay.

I'm not religious, I don't go by religion.

I'm fascinated by history, I'm fascinated by the amount of cultural information we receive along the way, the fantastic places we pass by, but I'm a spiritist, I go for the adventure.

And the path will never be the same for you as it is for me.

Never.

I've walked 14 times to Compostela, and none of them was like the other.

I've been to Portugal, last year I left Salamanca, doing the Caminho de Torres, which meets the Caminho de Santiago.

It's a medieval path, it's not the Caminho de Santiago, but it's the Caminho 1700, I don't know how much, but it meets the Caminho that leads to Valência do Minho, which is the main road to Compostela.

So, I believe in that.

You asked me about entrepreneurs, I don't want to get lost.

I believe that when a person goes down the path with their own reasons, with their own challenges, with their own physical, emotional, physiological and health abilities, there is no rule, you don't have to walk 6 km in an hour, you don't have to do 30 km a day, you don't have to do anything.

Now, being there and not hearing the little bird, and not listening to the car horn so as not to be run over, as it happens, not listening to the dog bark, not stopping to listen to the river sing, it's a waste.

So, if you surrender to the path, the path is so revealing, in reality, it's a silence that allows your conversation from the I to the me, which is different from the I to the me.

The me is me in there, I'm the only one who listens.

And the I is the social being who is talking to you.

When I want to talk to myself, it's from the I to me.

And it's not always easy.

We have more or less information, for example, the person in the first week, in the first, I don't know, five days, you deal with the pain of the body, you adapt, you fight with yourself, what the hell am I doing here, tired like this, sweaty like this, carrying weight, what a crazy idea that was.

You go, the feet, it's no use having a Ferrari, just one tire is not full, that doesn't work.

So, your tires are your feet, they are your knees.

You have to have a foot ritual, you have to take care of your foot at night, you have to take care of your foot in the morning, you have to tie your boot in a certain way, so your foot doesn't get loose in there, otherwise it will make a bubble, making a bubble will suffer, it doesn't have to.

I don't know a bubble, Maurício, in all my paths.

I don't know, I've dealt with a lot of people's bubbles, I know how to deal with a pilgrim's bubble, but I don't know the bubble.

Because besides what, I choose where to step.

And this is also an analogy that serves our entrepreneur.

Choose, pay attention, respect.

Respect, humility.

The path teaches a welcoming, a sharing of needs.

If someone sees you with a headache, pass it on to someone you've never seen in your life, who doesn't even speak your language, offers a sandwich.

If you're alone and there's someone eating nearby, offer them a meal.

For the entrepreneur, I think it opens the vision of the other, the vision of the simple, the vision that we are all equal, the vision that my discomfort is also yours, your pain can be my pain tomorrow, be it physical pain, emotional pain, personal challenge.

How many stories, how many stories are there?

So, in those first days, the person fights with their own body, then they start to enjoy, they start to say, well, now I already know how it is, I already know how it really is.

And then they start to live the path, they forget the annoyances and they start to live the path, to enjoy it.

And when she's arriving in Santiago, it's very common for people, 80, 60 kilometers away, to start walking slower because no one wants to get there.

And then you're already thinking, what am I going to do with it?

How do I get back to that life?

How am I going to find those people?

Because you have insights, you have memories, you have discoveries, it's not to get there and throw the whole closet out, separate from the woman, that's not it.

But you come back different when you allow yourself to take a walk, which doesn't have to be lonely, it doesn't have to be silent, but you allow yourself to be on the path, a life of simplicity, a life where the pilgrim, we usually say that the tourist asks and the pilgrim thanks.

The pilgrim just wants a bed and a bath, he doesn't want anything else.

He doesn't want anything else.

What does the pilgrim have to do?

Walk, eat, wash clothes, rest, sleep.

Walk, eat, wash clothes, rest, sleep.

He doesn't have to do it.

And this look at yourself with this greater frequency makes a connection that here in the day-to-day, who can?

With so much technology, with so many necessary answers, do you have to answer a quick WhatsApp?

Don't you get sentimental?

Do you have to say where you are?

Do you have to organize?

There's nothing there.

I believe a lot, and I even recommend, that they can do this delivery experience.

Because it certainly makes all the difference in the look at life.

I think this is important for an entrepreneur, no matter how big it is.

And then you confirm if my narrative will be correct.

Do you have a book written on the subject?

But to contextualize for people who don't know, The Way of Santiago, by Roque Compostela.

Wonderful!

But I really like his subtitle, which says, sometimes you win, sometimes you learn.

Excellent!

It's a photo book, but it has texts, there's the historical part, it's in Spanish and Brazilian.

Now I'm preparing to do the e-book, in three languages.

Excellent!

The Way of Santiago, also historically known as Peregrinatio Compostelana, in Latin, it is a network of routes, routes of pilgrimage that lead to the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia, northwestern Spain, where tradition claims that the remains of the apostle Tiago are buried.

The origin of this path dates back to the beginning of the ninth century, with the discovery of the mortal remains of Saint Tiago the Great.

Since then it has become one of the main routes of pilgrimage of medieval Christianity, that during the Middle Ages, the path was a route in which one could gain a plenary indulgence.

And today it has become this passage, I would say a rite of passage, of the meeting of life itself, with roots that date back to the Middle Ages.

There has been a significant change in perception and purpose over the centuries.

From a strictly religious route, it has become a path of personal and spiritual discovery.

The example you brought, attracting people of various origins and beliefs.

This historical evolution of the path mirrors the changes in society and individual motivations of each pilgrim.

So I ask you, considering the origins of the path of Saint Tiago in the medieval context and the evolution of its importance over the centuries, how do you think the perception and purpose of the path have changed since its conception until today?

I believe that the purpose of the path is the same.

And as you said, who had the first authorizations to walk the Compostela to honor the saint, were the presidiaries, where they walked as an indulgence of penance.

And they had to get to Compostela, bow their heads to the saint and walk another 90 km to Finisterre.

It was a time when the earth was square, so the earth is over, there is only water, here is the end of the earth.

The end of the earth, which is in the Atlantic.

Yes, the end of the earth, Finisterre.

And there is still today a fishing region.

And there was, only there, a shell, which is what we know as Coquim Sanjac, which is a concave shell, it has a lid on top.

And this concave part, which is the peregrine shell, they had to take it back and say, I was there.

As proof.

And on the way back, they used it to get water from the river, to eat.

And over the centuries, the shell became a peregrine symbol.

That's why the peregrine walks with the shell seen in the backpack, hanging on the chest, anywhere, to show that the peregrine is not a backpacker.

That's the first thing.

The path that began as penance very quickly turned into devotion.

It is one of the five countries of religious peregrination in the world.

Mecca, Jerusalem, Rome, Santiago, Compostela.

And I firmly believe that the path, its purpose has never changed.

What has been changing, and I just arrived from an international congress in Compostela, where the big concern is exactly this change of who is on the path, of who goes there.

Because years ago, Brazilians were the second largest international population to be on the path, thanks to my dear friend Paulo Coelho.

Nowadays, no.

It's the 11th place in number.

There are the Dutch, the French, the English, the Spaniards themselves.

But people have discovered that the path is a cheap tourism.

And that's what I told you a little before, that if a person wants to go on a tour, I advise them to go on a tour.

But it's not on the path, it's somewhere else.

It's Spain.

But it's a little bit off that path there.

So, the purpose of the path, of introspection, of observation, of focus, of the purpose of arriving in Compostela, I think it's maintained.

What has been changing are two important things.

One is the cheap tourism, where people think that they go, walk a little bit, then they get a car, walk a little more, and it becomes something else.

The second thing that changed was that from a few years ago, 2016, 2017, there started to be on the path a service that takes your backpack to where you decided to sleep.

So, you leave a tag, get in the car, take it and take it.

With that, people, as they say in Brazil, laid down on the network.

So, no one else wants to carry the weight.

But then it went to the absurd, that people go in a suitcase, in an airplane cabin, and take a backpack to spend the day standing, anything, water, cover, food, I don't know what.

And the suitcases, sometimes more than one, to do something else later.

Then I also go to I don't know where, I'm going to visit a granddaughter, I'm going to a wedding, I don't know where.

What is this leading to?

It's leading to a people that goes on the path, that has nothing of pilgrimage, that, through the tourism companies, that reserve the places for people to sleep.

The pilgrim who is walking doesn't have to stay.

On the other hand, the cars of the gentlemen that decided, sometimes not even gentlemen anymore, there are a lot of boys who are on vacation or who are doing a part-time for anything, takes the father's car and transports the backpacks.

But it's very different to transport a backpack than to transport a suitcase.

The backpack, with big excesses that you see, some reach 15 kilos, which is an aberration, sometimes it has more than 15 kilos in a suitcase.

So these little cars that supposedly started to help the pilgrim, and of course it was to help the older pilgrims, who wanted to walk, but who suffer more in carrying the weight of the backpack, these little cars are having to be replaced.

Because carrying a suitcase is different from carrying a backpack.

So it's even interfering in the trade inside the cars of history.

And the other thing is that the altars, which the vast majority are not pilgrims, only politicians, help the pilgrim to walk.

In their understanding.

So, what are they doing in some passages?

There's a lot of stone, he goes there and puts the cement, turns a ladder.

There's a lot of mud, he puts the brick.

Sometimes the brick is loose, and sometimes the brick with cement.

The brick ends with our foot.

Ends.

There is no boot that survives walking all day on top of bricks.

And there are passages of seven kilometers, that you don't have to do.

You have to walk next to a road, and the road in Spain, Portugal less, but in Spain it's very dangerous, because the slope in Spain is one meter wide, and the speed is very high.

So, everything happens.

I myself, on the first way, I was walking on a rainy day, with that cover, we call it camel cover, which covers the whole body and covers the backpack too, that you look like a little monster.

I was walking, and in the same way that there are a lot of people who like to help the pilgrim and enjoy the pilgrimage, there are a lot of people who don't like it, who think it's a bunch of people who don't have anything to do, went there to walk, it's definitely the way of life.

So, you get applause, sometimes even from the truck drivers, very well, and you also get other gestures that don't matter.

The guy will say, what are you doing here?

Go back to your house, you don't have to be here disturbing anyone.

With that, some trucks go too close, at a very high speed.

I was walking on a rainy day, with this cover, he passed so close to me, he made a vacuum under the cover, he took me off the ground, with a backpack and everything.

I just didn't fall, because there was a guardrail on my side, because it was a precipice.

So, even for that, we have to be careful when walking on the path, because sometimes, the path, the arrow, you have to follow the yellow arrow, which was something marked by Elias Valinho in the 80s, which was the stop of the city of Sebreiro, and he decided to make marks to help the pilgrim.

The blue arrows lead to Fátima, and the yellow arrows lead to Compostela.

I have my little arrow here, can you see it?

If you walk two, three kilometers and don't see any arrow, come back because you're lost.

You need to follow the arrow to get there.

With that, people go to the path following the arrows, playing, weightless, light, smiling, and with the altars making these physical changes on the path, facilitating the passage of the cars to take the backpacks.

So, the purpose of the path is the same, the way of walking is different.

So, I abstract these modernities and I always go to the path with the same purpose, which is silence, which is simplicity, which is surrender, which is being without masks, without prejudices, without necessary patterns, more or less valid, it doesn't matter, where you interact with people from all over the world, where you help people from all over the world.

When I travel, as a physiotherapist, I treat the neck, I treat the knee, I see a very crooked backpack, I apologize, can I fix your backpack better?

It will end up falling, tomorrow it's all crooked.

So, I think the purpose of the path remains.

The way of being in it has been changing.

So, people say, but you stay in a hostel, wow, but sleeping with 20 people is an immense exercise, an immense exercise of acceptance, of humility, of simplicity, of respect.

The hostel, at most at 10 o'clock at night, everything is paid.

And you don't make noise so as not to bother the other.

When you get up in the morning, at dawn, to go to the bathroom, you don't make noise, because you don't want to disturb who is sleeping.

If you have, I already said before, if you have any intercourse, any problem, someone passes by to help you.

The pilgrim helps himself, the tourist, tourism, not always.

They ignore you a little.

It's so equal, it's so light, it's so loose, that sometimes they don't even greet you.

The pilgrim doesn't pass by the pilgrim without wishing for a good path.

Always a good path, a good path, a good path.

Yesterday, just to illustrate this, yesterday I made a pilgrim meeting here in Lisbon, in a bar, restaurant, of some friends, who decorated the bar like a living room, sofas, armchairs, tables, different ones and such.

It's called living room.

It's the place.

And I only invited pilgrims.

A friend of mine, a pilgrim, who walked with me this year on the way, who arrived in Lisbon and couldn't leave anymore, couldn't go back to Brazil until today, he's here and he's going back.

He's the curator of this place.

So, we decided to make a pilgrim meeting.

There were, yesterday, almost 40 people, where there was a businessman with many, many, many facets and great ones.

There were people who don't have a job, who are in need of help, there were people of 70 years old, almost 80, there were people in their 20s, there were others in their 30s, 40s.

And I didn't want to make the meeting for me to speak.

So, I welcomed everyone and said, look, we're here to talk about the way.

Who's going to start?

And then a friend of ours, who is a musician, who has already done several Portuguese paths, Spanish, has already left Lisbon on foot, is Brazilian, but lives here with his family.

He started to give his statement and said that now, that he has already done the four or five, when he goes out of the axis a lot, the woman says, where do you want to walk?

Go for a walk.

You'll be better.

Go for a walk.

So, he takes a break of a week at the company and chooses what he's going to do, if he has more time, if he has a vacation, he takes advantage and goes for a walk.

Because the woman, even now...

Encourages.

Encourages, because that does good and he comes back calmer.

So, each one with his statement.

There were moments of a lot of fuss, because there are funny things that happen along the way.

There were moments of emotion, when we saw everyone with wet eyes, because someone was saying a deeper thing, a more delicate situation.

The path is absolutely multiple.

Today I'm getting a lot of thanks for having made the meeting to talk about the path.

Because, in fact, one of the things that one of the businessmen said is that when he came back, it happened, he had no intention, but it happened that he ended up selecting the friendships a little, because he would come to some groups, whether at work or in the family, and he started wanting to tell his experience, talk about the path.

And people wanted to talk about football, about the movie, about the party, or about the business.

Then he would look and say, I'm late, I forgot I had a commitment, and he would leave, because he didn't want that subject.

So, yesterday, the great joy we all had, we stayed there from 7 to midnight, I went to talk about the path.

Because the path is in us.

And this, I saw it in the big businessmen, I've seen so many people in these 24 years that I'm a pilgrim, and I've met people from all over the world.

Look, it's amazing, it's amazing the difference.

In 2016, I spent a few days with a German boy, chubby, chubby, obese, really obese.

And he, we started walking in Burgos, we met for dinner, I said, tomorrow I can walk with you.

He said, ok, let's go.

We walked together for 10, 12 days.

He only spoke English, and with a lot of difficulty, there was a time when he asked to stop, because he was very heavy, very heavy indeed.

He managed to drop things in his backpack, but his body was very fat, very difficult.

But I was waiting, a niece of mine, who is from Brazil, to come with me to Santiago, she was going to pick me up only for the last five days.

And he wanted to get there soon, because his parents were going to wait for him there.

We booked a farewell dinner, just him and me.

We went to dinner, after a day of walking, a normal day, but we decided, I want the last dinner, because he was going to sleep in his place, he was going to his hostel, and then we didn't know, because he lives in Italy, no, German, he lives in Nuremberg.

Well, then I'm going to have dinner with Matheu, who was of Italian origin, talking, talking, he said, it's very hot here.

He took off his coat.

When he took off his coat, he was wearing a Rolex, of this size, blue, full of diamonds.

On the way?

I hadn't even seen him, and he didn't even look like someone who could have a watch like that.

After he's my friend so far, he's been to Portugal to see me, he's been to Roberto's house with me, the size he is, he's gigantic, he's huge.

He produces olive oil, olive oil, and sulfur, in Sicily, and imports it to Germany.

So, it's because people, it's like the beach in Rio de Janeiro, where everyone is kind of the same, you don't know who it is, everyone is wearing that outfit, there's no difference.

Yes, the path equalizes the differences.

Among the different routes of the path, which one do you believe offers the most enriching experience, considering not only the distance, but also the cultural and historical aspects of the path itself, which are involved?

Look, each route has its singularities.

The North Path, for example, which is beautiful, it comes from Bilbao, Santander, Asturias, São Sebastião, and goes down to La Coruña, you walk along the cliffs and see the beaches down there, it's beautiful to die, but for me it's the way to Cabrito, because you go from zero to a thousand in one day.

I don't go there, because I go up complaining, I don't like to go up, so I go up, I ride a cart, I zigzag, I sit on a stone, I rest, then I go again, I don't like to go up, so I don't go there.

The path, it has, obviously, the French path, which is the oldest path, it is a path that has more history, because the cities were forming as the Christian colonization was coming.

So, in the beginning, in the early days, those who went to the path were the chameleons of the time, the mascots of the time, because what did the pilgrim need?

Water, there was someone selling water.

Ah, the pilgrim loses his shoe, he has to have a shoe to sell.

That was first.

Then the Catholic priests, when Christianity left, the persecution ended and they started to come, the first thing that appears is a church, and the cities were forming around these churches.

The castles appear, the templars appear, the disputes of territory appear, and this, the French path, is what will have more monuments, more physical history, concrete, for you to visit and be able to understand the passage of the pilgrimage over the centuries.

The tomb of Santiago was discovered in the year 890, and only in 1200 and something did people start to walk there.

Afonso II was the first king who walked with his court to Santiago to honor.

And then other monarchs, other popes, things were being built over the centuries.

So the Spanish path has a lot of history, Spain is a country of a lot of history, Portugal is a country of a lot of history, and one thing I love here, for example, is that you take a taxi and you praise any building, you ask what that is, most of the Portuguese drivers have something to say about that.

No, this was from the year I don't know how many, from the 5th, the 4th, they are proud to know about the history.

And Spain offers this cultural multiplicity, be it in gastronomy, be it in the vineyards, which are very rich, are vast, we walk through the vineyards and you start to observe that each vineyard has a type of soil, some are more, only the very dry leaves appear, others appear with pebbles, it is a type of grape that needs the dry leaf to drain more, the other is the stone that needs, so you have so much information.

I believe that the French way is the one that has more stories within Spain, and in Portuguese it is certainly the central way, the central way that can be done from Sagres, if you want, from Faro, there are 650, going up to Compostela.

The vast majority of people, including one of my friends who was yesterday at the meeting, has already left Lisbon and says that leaving Lisbon is arid, because there are many factories, there is a very large pollutant component, there is a lot of asphalt, you have to walk because there is nowhere to stay, so people prefer to leave the port, which is 240, more or less, but I, with the experience I have, there are those who say no, but for me, the arrival to Compostela, for those who go to Portugal, is more challenging than those who go through Spain, because there are four very heavy climbs, very heavy, on the side is already Spain, but came along the way from Portugal, and already on the Spanish way you have Galicia, which is all lower, it's all fresher, it's all greener, and now in April I was happy to be able to take my three children along the way, and when Ronaldo challenged me, I said, but do you want to walk in Spain or in Portugal?

I prefer to walk in Spain, which is the way you go the most, they were curious to know what it is, because the mother wants to come back every year, there must be something weird, the mother is very weird or the way is weird?

They wanted to walk.

And then I waited to pass a little bit, I asked him, do you want to be alone with me or can I invite your brothers?

No, you can invite your brothers too.

Junior, the oldest, had come with me in 2010, and always wanted to come back, and Roberta, I thought she was going to say, but leave it out of this, it's good like this, but no, she agreed, and I think she was more interested in being with me and the brothers than exactly along the way.

And it was great, because I realized that the four of us had never been alone, just the four of us, there was always a husband, a nanny, a friend, a grandfather, the four of us alone, no.

And what became very clear along the way, and we commented on this a little bit every day, is that it doesn't even seem like, I have adult children, everyone married, each with his family, it doesn't even seem like we haven't lived together for so many years.

The way makes these discoveries too, shows us what is possible.

And they loved it, because it's a lot of information, it's a lot, it's pure history, you're walking a path of thousands, you're going to say, but what happens there?

Of course there's a church there, of course, there's nothing else, it goes under the Milky Way, when you walk at night, you always walk west, and you're under the stars, which is the maxim from the beginning, from the first shepherd who discovered the tunnel of Santiago, where he, I mean, everything has a story and has a legend.

So it was said that the holy man had been decapitated in Jerusalem, and that his disciples had to save that situation, so a group took the head and a group took the body, at that time there were no wooden boxes, it was really stone, they put the stone inside a boat, and a group with the head went down the rivers, which is today the spiritual path, which is made of a boat, goes through the Galician rivers down to Padrón, and from Padrón you walk again to Santiago.

So the legend says that under the church, the altar of Padrón's church is the head of Santiago.

As the legend says that under the cathedral is the tomb of Santiago.

And when this tomb was discovered, the story says that it was a king who sent an emissary to look for it, because there was this story that Santiago would be buried in Galicia, because at that time people were buried where they had worked, and supposedly he had left Jerusalem, had managed to get to Galicia, and the whole story has a legend.

And the legend of the little shepherd, who is not the king's emissary, is a shepherd who shepherded his sheep and who saw a lot of stars walking in the sky, and he had nothing to do, he was following the sheep, he decided to follow the stars, and when he found the stars they were deposited on the ground.

And when he found the stars, he also found Santiago's tomb in a star field.

So it's Campos Estrelares, Campos Estrela Compostela.

Campos Estrela Compostela.

We don't say we're going to Santiago, we're going to Compostela.

It's Santiago, and by the way, it's St.

James, St.

Jacob, St.

Francis, it's all the same saint, only the language has changed.

It's St.

Jacques, St.

Jacob, St.

James, it's all Santiago.

Only the language has changed.

And the legend of the shell, we've talked about the shell before, I didn't talk about the legend.

The legend says that the shepherd carries his shell along the way to fill, it's concave, to fill the shell with his experiences along the way so that when he arrives in Santiago, in Compostela, he can offer the saint what you have better than your pearl.

Isn't it cute?

It's beautiful.

It's a beautiful story, it's beautiful.

Isn't it?

And when you arrive in Santiago, what element, a practice, a symbol, a specific experience do you consider more significant for the pilgrims and why?

Look, the great moment of the pilgrim arriving in Compostela is the Obradouro Square.

The Obradouro Square is the first place where you see the cathedral.

There, which is one of the great programs, you are sitting there, leaning over, the square is very big, on one side there is the cathedral, in front there is the government headquarters, on one side there is the first university, the first headquarters of the University of Santiago, and on the other side there is the Parador Três Reis, which is a six-star hotel, but it was built to be a prison, because those who pilgrimed were prisoners.

Then it became a hospice, because people who arrived were also sick, it became a hospital, and today it is a six-star hotel.

So, there, in this square, when we arrived, we did everything we had to do, the next day, you sit there and see the expression of the people who arrive, the reaction of each person, of each group.

There are those who arrive, throw themselves on the floor and scream, the other takes the phone, calls, the other looks at the sky and thanks, the other sits down and hugs, the other cries.

It's a magical place, if you stand still looking at the people.

But it is the first impact of the arrival.

Those who are very religious, for this very religious, it is necessary to make the way to embrace the saint.

And even those who are not so religious end up doing this ritual.

At the beginning, when I started, we could put our hands on a column in the Portico da Glória, today you can't anymore, it's there, people don't touch it, people push it.

I think it's a stone that won't fall.

It's making a hole.

Today you have the holes, five fingers appearing like this on the column, so they stopped letting go.

So, there you put your hand, then there is an image of Santiago below, you hit the head to the saint, kneeled, turned, made a circle around this column, and then you would visit the tomb, and then you would go to hug the saint up there, which is a bust of Santiago in gold and precious stones, which is on the altar, but in the penultimate stage of the altar, let's say, and it's a big image where you hug him from behind and on his back, as if it were just his torso, the torso and the head.

So, the torso is covered with stone clothes, and behind, on the back, there is a shell, so you hug him from back to front and put your head on the shell.

It's a reverence, a thank you, a gratitude, and then your arrival ritual ends.

From there, you go to the pilgrim's workshop with your credential, where there is a piece of paper that you have to show, or rather, you have to stamp where you sleep.

To get to Santiago, the pilgrim's workshop, you have to know how long you walked, because if you sleep in Porto and wake up in Lisbon, you didn't walk, it's 300 km.

So, nowadays, there are many experts, there are many experts.

So, today, they ask you to stamp two places where you sleep.

You stamp when you arrive and stamp when you leave.

To get there, you have the right to a diploma, in Latin, with your name, where it says you walked 100 km to Santiago, or 200 km by bicycle.

And there is already a movement within the Directorate of Tchacovéu.

Tchacovéu is the religious core of Compostela.

To change that to 200 km by foot and 300 km by bicycle.

Because these last 100 km, Maurício, are excessively populated.

Most people go to Santiago to get their diploma.

So, it's the most difficult moment for those who have been on the road for a longer time, at least a week.

Because what happens is that you are already on the tired path, you've been walking for many days and you meet brand new people.

I left home yesterday, wow, wow, wow, Spain on the way.

They take their place, they go with a joy that doesn't hinder the joy, but it's a noise that the pilgrim doesn't want anymore.

He's already in another mood, in another flow, in another way.

And they arrive at the alberques and there's no place.

It's polluted.

These last 15 km are very difficult.

It's better to do it at a less indicated time, let's say, because the best time is May, June and September.

Because the summer in Spain is 46, 47 degrees.

I've already done this nonsense twice back there.

I don't do it anymore.

It's a risk for health.

It's very uncomfortable.

No, it's a risk for health and at the same time it's a crazy effort.

I don't get out of my backpack because I believe that I posture better when I'm in the alberques.

Without weight, the tendency is to give more to the body.

So, this year, for example, I went with my children in April.

When I came with Júnior in 2010, we left at the end of March.

It's cold, it's cold.

And as the planet is changing a lot, the seasons are not as recognized as they always were.

Yes.

When I started to leave France, I arrived in France, at the border, to start the whole way in 2016, it was May 1st.

It was snowing.

Up there, in Saint-Jean, in Roças Valles, it was snowing.

So, you can't know anymore.

We say it's May, June, which is spring, and September, which is the end of summer.

Europe goes back to classes, to start the year.

Yes, especially the holidays.

It gets better, less difficult, less polluted by people.

But, on the other hand, in October it starts to rain in Spain.

On the first day, you can open the cover because it's going to rain.

And walking in the rain is very nauseating.

I've been to the University of Santiago twice to study, twice in October, twice with rain all the time.

It's not the best time.

Last year, when I left Salamanca on foot, when we arrived to go up the slopes of Portugal, rain, rain, rain, water on the foot, water on the foot straight.

It's more challenging.

Certainly.

You can't know how long it's going to take to go up.

It doesn't matter.

What matters is that you go up without getting hurt.

Because, if you fall, you don't even have a motorcycle to pick you up.

In the rain, there are no climbs that you have to do alone.

At least someone next to you.

So you respect the path.

You learn what you should do, what you shouldn't do, what will help you, what won't harm anyone.

We have now arrived at Pinga Fogo.

There are three quick questions that I ask all the guests.

The first one.

What are the virtues of a successful entrepreneur?

For me, the main one is humility, the look to your neighbor, obedience.

I know it's not obedience, but I'll say it anyway.

The holistic health of your own company.

He needs to be sure of knowing his employees, of knowing each one's story, that everyone is well, that everyone is happy working there with him.

If you're not happy, OK, help to find a better path.

So I think, in humility, he looks at the other.

In humility, he cares about his employee.

I think today it's the strongest quality I see in an entrepreneur, to be able to look at your neighbor and without humility, you can't look.

What differentiates dreamers from doers?

I think doers are more courageous than dreamers.

That's what I think.

I don't like the word I think, I believe.

Because the dream is fundamental.

The dream alerts you, gives you a purpose.

But just being on the network dreaming doesn't make it come true.

So I think the doers, I believe the doers dreamed before, but I don't think they're exactly in two categories.

Otherwise, you're going to get into the staff of the operators and managers, or logistics, or planning.

I don't think so.

In a simple way, it's like this.

I think those who really realize it are more courageous than those who dream.

What is design?

For me, design is purpose.

Purpose in the sense of the idealization of a dream, or of how to realize a purpose.

And design is so broad, because it's a modern word, but you have the design thinking, you have the design in the decoration, in the architecture, in the financing, how do you make your schedules, how do you organize yourself or not, how do you design that project, how do you design the survival of your company financially.

I think design is a very broad word today, but I believe that the first one that occurs to me, as this is a fire, I think design is this, it's purpose.

What do I want to do?

That's what I want to do, I have to design it, I have to create it, I have to give shape to this idea.

I think design gives shape to ideas.

Excellent.

Very well.

We have now reached one of Paul Brandt's most appreciated sessions, which is the indication of readings.

Which books impacted your trajectory?

Well, it's almost obvious, but the first, the first, the first was when my spiritual path began, which was the autobiography of a yogi, by Yogananda.

And it's, I think it's a top book for everyone, and I dedicated this book once to a person, where I said, this book will be able to act on you like a real ocean.

It will depend on your posture, stone or sand.

If the person is stone, it doesn't enter.

If the person is sand, it absorbs, it flows.

So, that was the first.

The second was the diary of a magician, by Paulo, who showed me that there was a place in the world where people go to meet each other.

It's not a spa, it's not a hotel, it's not a camp, it's possible to be walking in that place, in security and in search.

So, that's what touched me.

I didn't think I was going to the path to see the Virgin Mary, to fight with the dog he found, but it took me ten years to be able to step on the path for the first time.

So, the second to the path was the diary of the magician and the alchemist, who showed all the beauty of the dream and of the belief.

It's a belief in humanity, it's a belief in your personal possibility.

So, he really touched me a lot.

And a book that is small, but that I love with passion, is Agua Viva, by Clarice Lispector, where she says a sentence that stayed in my head, that she says, the instant is already.

When I think about talking to you, it's already gone.

It's tiny, it's really tiny, and I won't even open it, because it could be ugly.

It's all wrinkled.

I do the same with my books.

I don't know, even if I don't go back there, but I scribble.

And here, behind me, there's a carpet on the wall, I'm going to go out here a little bit, I don't know if you can see it, which says, I don't speak yesterday or tomorrow, but today and in this perishing instant.

Clarice Lispector, who is a goddess in my life, I love her.

So, in recommendation, if that's the purpose.

Right.

These are two books that took me on the path, two books that make us dream, two books that show a personal experience, which is not the same for anyone, but that stimulates, that enchants, that is good to read.

Yogananda shows a whole spiritual path and all the need for inner silence, which is not easy at all.

It's not easy at all.

So, I think a lot to be in silence, I really have to isolate myself.

And Clarice has this wisdom of life, of day-to-day, at the same time, this personal debate.

Although she seemed a very sad person, but she was very attentive, right?

And she says fantastic things and makes us remember that life is now, life is while we live.

It's not that of planning, it's not one that will come next month, and you don't know anything.

I think our day-to-day walk is very similar to that of the path, you know, Maurício?

On the path, you follow the yellow arrow, you know you have to follow the arrow to be able to get there, if you don't follow the arrow, you don't get where you want, but you don't know what comes next.

You don't know if in half an hour you're stepping on mud, if you're going to step on sand, if it's going to rain, if it's not going to rain, if where you're going to get there there's food, there isn't, if there's a bench, if there isn't, if you can sleep, if you can't.

And life is like that, we have the presumption of knowledge, we think that at Christmas it will be, I don't know where, you think you're going to spend New Year's Eve, I don't know where.

Ok. Maybe yes, maybe not.

And it's not just the path that is uncertain, our given step, we are no longer the same as the previous step.

Of course, of course.

The analogy I make of the path with life is this, we are talking, you have your plans for tonight, for tomorrow, for later, but we don't know.

It doesn't need much, right?

If you hit your head wrong, it doesn't get anywhere.

So I think that's it, I think it's this thing of the moment, of the now, of the gratitude of you realizing yourself in the now, in the gratitude of you realizing yourself active, conscious, attentive, interested.

It's very boring a person who has no interest, right?

A person who is not curious, thinks they know everything, I've seen it, no, I've been there.

I'm just like a child, I'm too curious.

I'm not curious about others, I have no interest in anyone's life, but I'm curious about life.

So on the way, I don't have time for anything, I just listen to the river sing, I listen to the birds, I'm sleepy, I lie down by the tree and sleep, I photograph all the time, my book is all made with my phone, all made with the phone.

And sometimes it's simple, sometimes it's something enchanting, but it's being here now, you know?

It's you realizing yourself alive, that's what I think makes all the difference, because otherwise you're living without existing, right?

And then it's very ungrateful to those who allowed us to get here.

So I think you have to...

That's when people get old, that's when people lose interest.

Aging is not in the body, it's also there.

But it doesn't make a difference if you have some minimum care, if you take it well.

The thing is here, right?

The black box is what gives the defect.

Certainly.

The black box is what gets in the way, right?

When you think you know or don't want to know anything else, or...

Then life is very ungrateful, very... very purposeless, right?

Very rich list of recommendations.

And to make it easier for everyone to watch us, we make available the links of these books directly in the description.

In addition, I invite everyone to explore our book section on the podbrand.design website, where we gather a curatorship with more than 250 recommended books by all our guests and these that Maria Alice now even indicates her authorship.

Maria Alice, I still have the final question that I bring from Fernanda Bizarria.

She is the founder of PS2P, which is an observatory of behavior and culture and that was recently on the podbrand.

And she formulated this question without having any idea that you would be our next guest.

Considering the difficult year that we are having, with wars and climatic variations in several places in the world with ethnic and all-nature conflicts, what is missing for humanity to wake up and that unites for the design of a more just, kinder world and in harmony with nature?

I'm repeating myself, but I'm going to apologize to Fernanda, I'm going to use the word again.

I think again that it's humility.

I think that...

I don't like this word.

I believe that without being blind, without denigrating any individual possibility, any life that each one has, any merit of being where it reached, it's not that.

It's looking at the other.

It's looking at your like yourself.

It's perceiving the pain of the other which is your pain.

It's perceiving your difficulty looking at the other.

It's perceiving how much we have the same and how much we have even more.

So I think that in this world of wars, in this world of political conflicts, because we see that we have an absolutely stupid war which is for a territory leadership, which is for hatred, it doesn't lead to anything.

Because it's our children, our parents, our friends who are dying there.

And people don't eat, cry, have pain, get hurt, like us.

But it's comfortable, we're far from that.

So I think that when each one of us, each person, becomes aware of their role as a citizen in this world of now, in this now, today, where you select your trash, where you don't spend more than you need, where you share what you don't need, when you look at your like and look if he's okay, if he's not okay, what can you do for him?

I think that's how the world can change.

That's how we can with all the differences, the inequalities, the plurality, the difference of beliefs that get in the way so much.

And invisible beliefs, I think these are the most difficult because you can't understand how the person...

How is that?

Who doesn't build, who only destroys, who doesn't take anything, who doesn't...

So I believe that.

I think the word humility takes us to a place similar to your neighbor.

It takes us to a place where you don't exactly diminish, but you equalize, and in what you equalize, you can perceive, feel, I mean, interact, react, perceiving in the other what is yours.

I think it's the only way because I don't see rich people happier, I don't see people with power neither happier nor able to do what they should do for a more egalitarian world.

I also don't see people with a lot of power and a lot of money knowing where the trash in their house is.

I also don't see people with a lot of power and sometimes a lot of money knowing how their secretary lives in their house.

Who still has it?

In Europe it's easier not to have it.

I think that's where the difference is.

It's when you stop being an island.

You have to move away from the island to be able to see it.

If you don't leave it, it's almost an entire continent.

You have to move away from the island to be able to see it.

And if you don't do it, I think it's very bad.

I'm not a negative person, I don't think it's bad, I don't see a movie of gunshots, I don't see bad news, I preserve myself from all this heavy energy that I can, heavy people that don't get in, there's no way.

But technology leads to that.

The speed of communication, globalization, interaction, in seconds, you know what happened there, in Greenland, you know what happened.

And that's very fast for the speed of our thinking, which is not so fast, it doesn't keep up anymore.

It doesn't keep up anymore.

And what you can do too, it doesn't go at the same speed.

Unless I want to jump out the window, but I'm jumping out the window, I'm just going to die faster, I won't be able to help anyone.

So I think the word is egalitarian, a human thing, you know, more human, more attentive to the other, I think it makes all the difference.

I think it has to be the way.

And if you could ask a single question to our next guest, what would it be?

Why did you accept to talk to Maurício on Podband?

Interesting.

I would ask that question.

It's going to be our first episode of 2024.

I can answer, but the question is not for me, so when the person answers, I'll want to know.

Very well.

Excellent, Maria Alice.

What a wonderful meeting to have you here today on Podband, here with me.

And for engaging in our purpose.

Thank you very much for making the difference and sharing with us this experience so enriching, so beautiful, so inspiring.

Thank you very much, from the bottom of my heart.

Thank you, Maurício, for the invitation.

We can talk about other aspects later on another Podband.

I'm an ambassador for several segments here in Portugal.

People can contact me on my Instagram and the book as well, on LinkedIn.

My purpose of life is to be useful.

So, do you work?

No, I don't work anymore.

But, on the other hand, I don't have time for anything because I work all the time.

So, how many times do you need me for what you need?

Anyone who is listening to us, any contact, you are welcome.

You can come, you can call.

I'm always open to talk, to meet people.

And I'm happy to be here with you.

It's easy to talk.

So, talking about the path is almost a vice.

So, thank you very much.

Thank you to our friend Harry, who joined us.

And may we be really, really contributing so that people, I don't say learn, but may they unite, may each experience of each interviewee of yours be another learning point, another step of wisdom, another reason for people to be together.

May you all have a beautiful year, may it be an easier year for everyone, may the world be less aggressive, and may we all have a good path, always.

Amen.

Thank you.

Maria Alice's social media are down there in the description too.

Happy New Year and it was an honor to have you in this last episode of 2023 with us, Maria Alice.

Me too.

Happy 2024, with a lot of light, with a lot of health, and a good path, always.

Amen.

See you soon.

Bye.

Thank you.

As we close this inspiring episode of Podbrand, it becomes more evident the importance of Maria Alice Medina's journey for any entrepreneur, for anyone.

The life experience that she shared with us, moving from the dynamism of Rock in Rio, the reflective trails of the path of Santiago.

This teaches us about the importance of resilience, reinvention and search for a balance between the mind and the spirit.

Her story is a powerful reminder that in this new year we build a world better for everyone, important for anyone, and that success is not only external, but above all introspection and self-knowledge.

I invite everyone to visit the podbrand.design website and if you can, do us a favor and someone you know, sharing this beautiful closing episode of 2023.

See you in 2024 here at Podbrand, the Design Podcast.