Welcome to Podbrand, my name is Mauricio Medeiros, I am a consultant in strategic design and author of the book, Árvore da Marca, where I detail step by step my method that simplifies the implementation of the branding process.

Today we have the pleasure of welcoming Giovanni Vannucchi, one of the greatest names in Brazilian and international design.

He is an architect and designer graduated from the University of São Paulo.

Giovanni is one of the legends of the segment in the country and accumulates 45 years of a career that transformed the design scenario in Brazil.

He was the founder and partner for four decades of the OZ Estratégia+Design and recently founded Vannucchi Brand Design.

He played a central role in the strengthening of Brazilian design as co-founder and director of associations such as ADG Brasil, ABEDESIGN, Brazilian Association of Design Companies and ABRE, Brazilian Association of Packaging.

His expertise led him to be awarded international prestigious awards such as the Cannes Lion in France and to represent Brazil at the Ibero-American Design Biennial.

Recently, he was the general director of the Brazil Design Award 2024, the largest award of design projects in Brazil promoted by ABEDESIGN.

Giovanni, welcome!

Thank you very much, Mauricio.

I am happy to participate in Podbrand, I have followed it, it is a very rich content and I hope that my 45-year experience can add a little to this rich content.

Excellent!

Certainly, I am sure that your vast experience and legacy for Brazilian design will help our audience a lot to reach its best version.

Thank you very much for accepting the invitation, Giovanni.

It is a pleasure to have you.

When we talk about design, it is evident that it is much more than just aesthetics.

It is a strategic force that can transform business, shape brand perception and create meaningful value experiences.

Throughout your career, you have followed the evolution of design in different contexts and its integration with other areas of business.

I want to take this moment to explore the impact of design as a strategic engine, its evolution over the years, and how the most recent trends, such as those that emerged in BDA 2024, can inspire companies and professionals to adopt design as a multidisciplinary tool.

So I start by asking you, how can design be integrated into business strategies to create value, in addition to the product or service, directly impacting the client's experience and brand perception?

Cool, Mauricio.

I think it can be educational for us to go back to what the Danish Design Center developed, which they called the design ladder.

They defined four stages in which the company would be positioned.

The first is that there is no design, and I don't know how long these companies will last, in the medium and perhaps even the short term.

The second is design as a style, only as a language.

So we can take an example of a product where you only make its style, or in a package where you only change the graphic part, only change the graphic design, without having structural changes.

The third stage is when the design already enters the process.

It doesn't enter the end of the process as in the previous stage, but the design already starts to be inserted during the development of a product or service.

And the fourth stage that the Danish Design Center defined is the design as a strategy.

The company already uses the design as a strategic factor, where you can't not think about the design already being part of that company.

More recently, two more steps have been added.

One is the design for systemic change.

The design as a structural change that will allow to solve more complex problems.

And the last stage is the design as a culture.

It is already fully integrated, which allows to constantly innovate, which also allows to lead, which allows to know how to ask the right questions.

I think this design stage is very didactic for the company to know where it will fit.

A friend of ours, Robert Peterson, a Canadian designer who was present in ICOGRADA, he used an expression that I like a lot, which is that design creates culture, culture creates values, and values define the future.

I think this is also a process that is very interesting for us to follow.

This definition of the Danish Design Center is very interesting.

My question is to complement this, these two steps added, do they also originate in the Danish Design Center or are there other studios that added?

I saw this in an Australian research institute.

Now I don't remember exactly, but in fact they added this new moment later.

Even because the Danish Design Center is not so recent, so design has been changing a lot over time.

Then I go back to an example that serves for any businessman as a benchmark, but especially for those small businessmen or micro-businessmen, which is the case of Valdir the Street popcorn maker.

And I recommend that everyone access YouTube and watch the video of Valdir the Street popcorn maker, which is not new, it certainly has more than 10 years, but it is an example of a street popcorn maker who innovated through service design, of systemic design, he ended up applying, without probably knowing the subject matter that we are dealing with here, but applying it in practice.

And I think it is a beautiful example that shows that design can be applied deeply to a street popcorn maker, to a micro and small businessman, or an individual entrepreneur.

Even to break this thing a little bit, that only big companies have the possibility.

We have several examples, where sometimes a small change, without spending millions, in fact we just had today the case of the Chinese IA, DeepSeek, which invested much less, with chips with less power, and broke a trillion losses in Nasdaq.

So, this thing of having a lot of money to invest is very relative, in fact.

Yes.

For many, design is still interpreted only as an aesthetic expression.

In your experience, what are the main mistakes that companies make when treating design as an isolated element?

And how can this be corrected to maximize the results?

I think that's a little bit what we were talking about in the previous question.

I mean, I think that if you call design at the final stage of the process, you lose the opportunity to be more strategic.

In fact, being able to introduce designers and design during a process and understand how it is fundamental from the beginning, is fundamental, because only then will you be able to differentiate yourself.

I even like the etymological origin of the word design, which comes from the Latin D plus signare, which means to give meaning.

So, design has this role. When you are interfering in a product or service, you are ultimately attributing a new meaning and creating more value for your brand, for your product or for your service.

Certainly.

Design requires more and more collaboration between disciplines, such as marketing, technology, data science, today AI.

How can designers position themselves as strategic catalysts in these multidisciplinary environments?

I think that even with the very formation of the designer; it is a plural formation.

I think if we take as an example a product design, at the same time that you have to know about material resistance or ergonomics, which are more technical things, at the same time you have to understand the sociology of that product or the consumption trends that that product is inserted in, what consumption trends are existing.

The very formation of the designer requires this multidisciplinary look.

So I think we already have at the origin this ability to know how to ask the right questions and be able to coordinate this universe, as you said, increasingly multidisciplinary of professionals.

And increasingly, when developing design, you have to bring together professionals from various disciplines and various specialties.

So, I think that through our own formation, we have this ability to have a reasonably open mind to be able to absorb the different information, the different disciplines.

Certainly.

In the last 45 years of your journey, you have accompanied the transformation of design from an analog environment to digital, which is a transformation that today the current generation that is entering the labor market has never experienced, because it has already entered, from birth, within the digital environment, totally integrated into their lives.

What were the main impacts of this change in the methodologies and also in the expected results, especially in your experience with OZ Estratégia+Design, which was when there was this transition, right?

Yes, exactly.

I even think that we at OZ were one of the first design offices to understand the importance of the computer.

At the time, you had to import the computer, it was a total madness.

I remember having the first Macintosh and dividing the schedules between the three partners, because it was a fortune.

So, we made a schedule for the week and each one had a schedule.

But I actually consider myself privileged to have just gone through this transition, to have started my professional activity in an analog world and, at the same time, to have the ability to adapt to a digital world.

So, we weren't just there asking someone who uses a computer to do this and that, we also learned how to use a computer.

I think this is a privilege, because we, as designers, have to make it clear that design is an industrial process.

I'm talking about graphic design, product design.

So, you're not an artist.

You have to generate solutions that will have to be reproduced industrially.

And, many times, those who started their visual universe, their career in front of a computer, often forget that what we see on the screen doesn't necessarily work.

So, I think this possibility of starting in a way outside the computer and having migrated to the digital world was really a privilege.

Just remember that when we worked before, to make a final art, you had to send a typed text to a company, and the company would return, after one or two days, if you were lucky, a copy of that text to the source you had asked for.

So, you can imagine the impact of time that the digital world brought to the development of works, for better or for worse.

Because there are many customers who think it's just a matter of pressing a button and the project comes out in five minutes.

In a way, that had a huge impact on productivity and also on experimentation.

The fact that you have a machine that allows you to expand your possibilities a lot, even the most basic things, like changing colors.

In the past, you had to do it with a colored pencil, and then here on the computer you can choose 500 colors or typographic photos.

In addition to the production, there is also the access to a world of information.

So, you will have much more possibilities, when you are doing brand work, to access benchmarks from other places, from the most different countries, data, consumption trends.

I mean, it opens up a window of research that is gigantic and that allows you to reach much more assertive solutions than when you didn't have this gigantic universe of data at your disposal.

Today we can do a global desk research to develop a project.

Often, when we are developing a brand work, we even research other categories in which that brand is inserted, because this can give inputs that if you stay only in the universe of your category, maybe you won't be able to have this interesting insight.

Sometimes it gives you a consumption trend that allows you to move from a category to the category you are actually working in.

Yes.

From the revolutionary transitions, let's say, the dynamics of society, of men in society, since the agricultural era, going through the industrial revolution, the information revolution, I think that today we live in the limelight of the age of attention.

So, how can the creation of remarkable experiences transform the perception of a brand and generate fidelity, which today is a complex component within the multiple offers in the market, in a world where people are increasingly fragmenting their attention.

The clicks are almost addictive.

The click to enter a certain content and to leave that content.

It replaced the remote control of televisions.

Certainly.

So, how do you see today the role of the designer to build this relationship where attention may be the battlefield?

Certainly.

In fact, one of the days I will indicate is the Law of Simplicity, by John Maeda, which is precisely what he says, that in this complex world it is very difficult.

He uses a phrase that I like a lot, which is that simplicity is subtracting the obvious and adding the significant.

Because that's it, we are flooded with so much information that it is difficult to really focus.

I think that the role of brands today is to establish a more human relationship.

In fact, Philip Kotler is now releasing in Brazil a book called Age to Age, which is Human to Human, which is precisely this idea of brands connecting more and more.

He uses an interesting example, which is that in the past you went to the corner store, you knew the seller by name, he also knew you by name.

So there was a humanized relationship between you, the customer, and the seller.

Today everything is Absolutly antiseptic, you go to the checkout, and navigate alone through the supermarket.

So this relationship, of you creating an emotional relationship with the brands, is fundamental.

You have to create unique experiences, you have to create a relationship with the brands.

So it's much less about developing a product, and much more about establishing a relationship with the customer.

And much more than doing advertising, nowadays it's much more what Google says about you, than what you say about yourself.

So this idea of ​​creating a reputation, instead of trying to shape an image, is super important.

So this thing of establishing an individual relationship, a more humanized relationship, people want to get out of this mass, that you talked about, gigantic.

So, of course, mass advertising still serves for some kind of product, for some kind of brand, for some kind of category.

But nowadays, the more you focus on the individual, the better, for you to differentiate.

I remember a very interesting case from Absolut, a lot in this line, they developed a super complex industrial process, where they worked with 4 or 5 graphic elements, and they industrially made the mixture of these graphic elements, and they managed to generate 4,000 completely different Absolut bottles, each numbered.

So, as an Absolut consumer, you were sure that bottle was made for you.

Only you had that Absolut packaging.

This is a very palpable example of this idea of trying, the more you do individualized things, each thing that meets the specific need of each consumer.

It is also a good example of this relationship of empathy, that the brand seeks its user, the consumer.

It is Starbucks that requests the name or nickname of the person, when the order is made, so that when that coffee or food is delivered, it is called by the name of the person, instead of a password or a number on a display, which is more common.

Yes, and you see, sometimes they are very simple things.

You don't need a revolution.

In the case of Absolut, you really had a complex industrial research, of you adapting the production system to this thing.

But in the case of Starbucks, it's just an idea that, in the end, is brilliant and very simple.

Instead of putting a cold number, the guy feels that that drink was made for Mauricio.

So, sometimes simple ideas already have a great effect.

And I also see it as a double-edged sword, because the attendant himself, the salesman, the Starbucks attendant, ends up having an interaction from person to person when it comes to the name.

It's not just a checkout of a purchase and the delivery of a product.

This has a relationship that serves to qualify the team and make the team more integrated with that person.

This was also one of the reasons, let's put it this way, for me to have developed the brand tree method to do the branding rooting process, especially for people who never had access to the branding content, who don't know the subject, who don't know the role of branding, and have difficulty understanding when it comes to a slightly more technical topic.

And with the method...

It's not simple, right, Mauricio?

Exactly.

And since I did this outside, with people who didn't even have training, many times even higher training, store sellers, 2,000 store sellers, how can these people understand what a branding process is?

That's when I created the analogy of the tree between the root and the whole environment it generates, including shadow, not only the trunk, the bark, the branches and everything else.

It was a way, not for designers themselves, but for designers to use as a tool, a toolkit, for the implementation of the concept, for people who are going to implement, franchise network, anyway.

Because the process is not simple, right?

So, being able to go through this in a more didactic way has a super value, right?

And how important it is for people, let's call it the factory floor, right?

Or belly on the counter, in retail.

To be integrated with this process, right?

Which is not a definition of the CEO with the designer, or with chief designer officer, or with the marketing area.

It's not an activity, but a process, right?

It's not an isolated action, but the culture.

And it only enters the culture when people put it introspectively in their day-to-day, in their work reality.

Of course, it's fundamental, right?

The other day, I read, right?

How do you want an employee who receives badly, how can he create a good experience for his client, for his user, right?

So, this thing of you establishing a good relationship, this thing you said, if the factory doesn't buy this idea, and it's not a partner either, it's no use if you have a wonderful manual, a brand book, that won't solve your life for sure, right?

I remember a brand that you, at the time of Oz, attended, which was Penalty, right?

At the time I was involved in the shoe industry, in a tennis brand, which was Streetwear, let's call it that, which was Regazone, I wasn't a competitor of Penalty, Penalty already had a performance job, it's another segment, right?

But I already had in my head the relevance of the name Penalty and that all employees would be hitting a penalty from a player, with that shoe, with that tennis, anyway.

So I already had that in my mind, let's call it that.

Cool.

In fact, at the time, when we developed the brand, the branding for them and such, we even ended up doing a workshop with the internal product designers to pass on what it was, I mean, we defined a branding, this thing of Ginga, which is a Brazilian brand, which competes with Nike, with Inbok, with all international brands, this thing of Brazilianness and such.

We even ended up doing a workshop for the company's own designers, the company's product designers, to pass on how this positioning could also be applied to the Penalty's own shoes.

So this thing of expanding Brandy's tentacles to various areas, whether the person is in front of the client, the end user, or for those who are developing the company's products, always trying to create a standard and a uniformity in relation to Brandy.

In addition to being one of the founders of ABEDESIGN, the Brazilian Association of Design Companies, and a member of the board, you were the general director of the Brazil Design Award 2024, recently presented in December last year.

The BDA 2024 awarded projects highlight relevant trends and innovative solutions in design.

These are the most recent works and design projects awarded by rigorous curatorship.

How companies, especially those that do not yet have a well-structured design culture, can be inspired in these cases to adopt creative practices and strategies that have an impact on business, and how can we access the awarded projects, Giovanni?

I was very happy to be invited to be the Director-General of the BDA, because I was one of the founders of ABEDESIGN, I was director for 10 years, and I was no longer so directly in the day-to-day, so I was happy to return to this more executive issue.

The BDA is certainly the most representative Brazilian design award today.

There were more than 1,200 projects registered, and what I think is very rich in the BDA is the scope, you have a very relevant panorama of Brazilian design in the different categories.

So I think you can see there, from a Branding Award project for a small NGO, to a packaging project for a large multinational, for the product of a large multinational.

So I think the BDA has this great advantage, to show a little bit what we were talking about, that accessible design doesn't matter much in the area where your company or institution is.

And you also have works from all over Brazil, from Rio de Janeiro to São Paulo, which in the beginning was much more focused there, but even in the interior, from the north, from the northeast, from the south.

So I think this gigantic panorama that the BDA brings, of projects and many of them of very high quality, I think they are a great reference for companies that don't have design, or that have design in the initial stage, to see the super broad possibilities that exist for you to work with design.

So a little bit of what we were talking about, it doesn't have to be a multinational to hire design.

And the impact of this is gigantic.

I remember we once, even numbers, we changed a packaging of a brand, it wasn't even such an impactful brand, and exactly the same product in that box, just changing its look, it grew 40% compared to the same month of the previous year.

And in that case, I was only talking about the graphic part.

But design has this ability to transform the product, when you have the same, or a service, for example.

We worked a lot, for example, with law firms.

It's a completely intangible job, service is an intangible thing.

So when you can materialize this in a visual identity of the office, you start to create a differentiation.

So I think services are like that.

Hospitals is another case that for me is very...

Lawyers have a lot of experience in dealing with brands, as well as this part of health too.

And we may have been one of the offices that worked the most in the health area, such as Sirio Libanês, Oswaldo Cruz, several labs of DASA.

There was this pride a few years ago, I will not change the health, you can't make propaganda, create a brand.

And they understood that the patient is a client like any other.

Either he goes to Einstein or he goes to Cirio Libânes.

So I need to create a brand like any other category.

Sometimes even categories that we imagine that don't need to have design behind, that don't need to position themselves, that don't need to strengthen the brand, end up learning over time that brand building is essential for you to be successful.

This example of hospital health is very interesting.

There is a business segment, which is hospital tourism, which is the arrival of foreigners to a certain country that has a high quality medical offer, but also with services, with services from the hotel itself, from the concierge.

Thailand, Bangkok, for example, is a very important hub, with billions of dollars in revenue, through hospital tourism, both from the Middle East, India and Southeast Asia.

Of course, taking advantage of this connection of yours, we did a lot of marketing for these top-of-the-line hospitals, and we, at the end, had to have the English version as well.

So you see how this really corroborates what you are saying.

In addition to having all the normal signage in Portuguese, below you had translated into English precisely for this, because a lot of people come from abroad to use these top hospitals services in Brazil.

Yes, certainly.

Very well, we now enter, Giovanni, into the fire pit.

Let's go.

These are questions that require faster answers and that I ask all the guests.

The first one.

What are the virtues of a successful entrepreneur?

Well, I think the first one is resilience, right?

Because, you have an idea, in my career, I went through seven currency changes.

So, seven currency changes and a Collor economic plan.

I don't know if anyone knows what a Collor economic plan means, but if you don't have the ability to adapt to these situations, the most unbelievable ones, like the Collor economic plan, you really can't go beyond that.

I think another thing that is fundamental to me is empathy.

I think the relationship with people is fundamental.

The relationship with your collaborators, the relationship with partners, the relationship with clients.

I have many clients of mine who became friends.

So, I think having a relationship of empathy with the people around you is fundamental.

I think this is super important.

A third thing is to help the masses.

Many entrepreneurs think, how wonderful, I'm going to do my time, I'm going to work when I need to.

And then I remember, in the beginning, we answered the phone, did the shopping, sometimes you have to put your hand in the dough, and don't think you're just going to lead and tell you to do this and that.

And for that, I think it's essential to like what you do.

I think that to be an entrepreneur, you can't be more or less.

I always say, you can't be a designer from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.

You have to be a designer all the time, because you're refueling all the time.

If you go to a theater, if you go to see a movie, if you see a show, it ends up refueling you with information.

So I think putting your hand in the dough is essential.

And for me, the last thing is humor.

I think humor is a fundamental element.

I think at Oz, we've always been very humorous.

I think, whether it's me or my partners, the climate in general at Oz has always been very humorous.

So much so that we had a lot of people who left and came back.

There was a Facebook group called Ex-Oz.

So there we were able to create a relationship.

A little bit of this thing I was talking about, empathy with the people who work and humor.

I think humor, not only professionally, but in life, for me, is super important.

I think ideally you have a fusion of these two characters.

Because you being a dreamer, but not being able to implement what you dreamed, it doesn't have much value.

Once I read a statistic that said that 45 people have the same new idea, but only 3 can stand up.

So having only a good idea, or a good dream, and not being able to materialize it, it doesn't have much value.

Just like you being a doer, pedaling, doing things, but not knowing where you're going, it doesn't have much value.

You have to know, I'm doing it, I'm investing, I'm working, to get to a certain point, to get to a certain dream.

So I think you also have a fusion of these two things.

Doing things, acting, acting is fundamental, as long as you have a dream to be achieved.

And the last one, what is design?

This is a million-dollar question.

Design has changed a lot, it has been changing a lot, a lot, a lot.

It's curious that when we founded ADG, I was one of the founders, one of the big discussions was how ADG would be called.

It would be the Association of Graphic Artists, the Association of Visual Programmers, and at that moment we chose, correctly, by design, the Association of Graphic Designers.

Because at that time, few people actually knew what design was, it was restricted to a universe.

But nowadays, I mean, design is spread around.

I think that design, if in the past you had a more direct division between product design and graphic design, this has changed completely.

Nowadays we have digital design, service design, social impact design.

So, the spectrum of activities where design is inserted has increased a lot.

So I think that design has expanded more and more.

And I think that the great thing, what unites all these activities, in fact, is the interest for people and it's you trying to find the most appropriate solutions to meet the needs of those people.

It can be from a wonderful poster by Milton Glaser from the 70s, he was making a poster, but he had to know how to communicate that poster to that specific audience.

So I'm communicating something to a specific audience, that is, a broad project of service design where I will have to do a deep study to understand the dynamics of that service, how people behave, what are the steps that people take to get to a certain end of that service.

So, whether it's a poster or a service design project, the final interest, the final goal is to serve people well, to solve problems for people who will use that product or that service or that brand.

Perfect.

So, we always ask for the indication of books.

Giovanni, which books have impacted your career that can help our audience reach their best version?

Cool, I always like this question you ask the guests.

I will indicate books from the area, but I don't like just reading books from the area, because I think, as I said, you have to also supply yourself with other things.

The other day I read a statistic from the Institute of Books that said that 53% of Brazilians didn't read any book in 2024.

And of those who read, only 23% made it to the end.

That is, 71% of Brazilians didn't read a book until the end.

And it's scary, this number, because it really only grows as a nation, with education and knowledge.

Anyway, I like not to focus only on design and strategy.

I'm going to point out four books.

One, the Laws of Simplicity, by John Maeda, which explains the story of how simplicity is fundamental for you to appear and have success in a world full of information.

The other one is called Design Policy.

Now I forgot, I had brought the books, we moved places, I ended up leaving them up there.

Then I'll give you the author's name.

The Design Policy.

I find this book super interesting, because it makes an analysis of how our actions as designers always have a political action.

If I choose an image X or Y, this will pass a message that is still a political message.

Even if I choose a typography of one type or another, I'm passing an information aimed at a certain type of audience and passing a specific message.

So this is a very interesting book.

Oops, they brought me here, thank you very much.

The books here.

So this one is The Laws of Simplicity.

This is a thin book, by Maeda.

It's an easy book to read.

Very thin.

He said he wanted to make a simple book.

I wanted the book to be simple too.

So here, The Laws of Simplicity.

This one is Politics and Design.

Oops.

Let me see here.

It's by Ruben Pater.

Ruben Pater.

The other book I chose is called The Book of Questions.

It's a four-genius book.

It's questions from Pablo Neruda, translated by Ferreira Goulart, illustrated by this brilliant Luís H Ferreira.

He's a Spanish designer, illustrator and sculptor.

He did the illustrations for this book.

I think that we, as designers, choose this book because we have to know how to ask questions.

Buckminster Fuller used to say that a well-formulated question will take us very close to the solution to that problem.

So I think that we, as designers, have to know how to ask questions very well.

I think that we have this ability to be...

While we are external to companies, we play the role of a psychotherapist.

We can distance ourselves from that client, that company, which allows us, from the outside, to understand which questions are fundamental in order to achieve the result we want to achieve.

And the last one I chose is the Grande Sertão Veredas by Guimarães Rosa.

I think he is an example of what Brazil is.

I get very upset when...

I think that the bulk of the upper middle class and the upper middle class in Brazil don't know Brazil.

They prefer to go to the United States, to Europe, but they don't know the real Brazil.

I think the Grande Sertão Veredas has this ability to expose Brazil in its core, the Brazil of the foundations, the real Brazil.

I think it's wonderful.

And when we talk about design as innovation, it's a book, if I'm not mistaken, from 1937, which completely innovated the language.

So I think it also brings a fantastic dose of innovation.

So I think it's a symbol of Brazillianess.

I think you can't be a designer in Brazil without knowing Brazil in depth.

I think this is super important.

Perfect, excellent.

Just reinforcing that the link to the books by Giovanni and the other guests, you can find on the website podbrand.design in the book menu.

We have here at Podbrand a tradition where our previous guest leaves a question for the next guest.

Nady Dequech, who is a counselor and legal advisor specializing in family businesses, asked, not knowing that you would be the next guest, what legacy would you like to leave?

This is a question and so much, but I liked it.

I thought a lot, I think so, a little bit of what I had said about empathy, I think I want to serve as an example, that in fact you don't do anything alone.

You can't be successful alone, any activity, any trajectory, it depends on other people.

So, what I've always sought in my life, either from a professional point of view, or from a personal point of view, is to create a rich network of relationships, a true network, an empathic network, a very humorous network, if possible.

And with affection.

I always tell my children that network is fundamental.

But the network is not only this superficial network where you go to events to show up, but it is a true network of relationships between people.

I think my legacy is to try to show people that the relationship with people is the richest thing anyone can have.

I think this is very important to me.

And finally, Giovanni, what question would you like to leave for our next guest?

I deal with brands, so the question I thought of would be, we are a brand, Mauricio Medeiros is a brand, Giovanni Vannucchi is a brand, everyone is a brand.

So my question for the next guest would be, what attributes, what values would you have, your personal brand, to present yourself to the world, to stand out to the world, and what would be your differential, a very characteristic of yours, that you are presenting to the world?

I think this is a question that I would like to have answered from the person.

Brilliant question, it requires a great introspection to get to this answer.

It will be given to our next guest, thank you very much.

Great, I'll be curious to see the answer.

Giovanni, we have reached the end, I want to thank you for sharing your insights, accumulated in four decades and little experience, developing and promoting design as a discipline and not as an activity.

It was a great joy to have you today at Podbrand, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Thank you very much, I really enjoyed being here and I feel honored to be part of this Podbrand universe in general.

A big hug.

A big hug and see you soon.

A hug, bye.

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