The episode "When Design Meets Marketing" features a profound discussion between Maurício Medeiros and Marcelo Teixeira, exploring the intersection of design and marketing. Marcelo, with a rich background in architecture, design, and music, shares insights from his extensive experience, particularly highlighting his tenure as the head designer at Embraer.

Key Points:

• Multidisciplinary Approach: Marcelo emphasizes the importance of a multidisciplinary approach in design and marketing, advocating for a process-oriented mindset that transcends traditional boundaries.

• Strategic Design: The conversation delves into strategic design as a methodology that integrates the planning aspects of marketing with the creative execution of design, creating a powerful tool for business innovation.

• Collaboration between Disciplines: The synergy between design and marketing is presented as crucial for creating value and enhancing brand perception. Marcelo suggests that effective collaboration can overcome common challenges in aligning these areas.

• Evolving Landscape: The discussion also touches upon the changing landscape of marketing and design, driven by technological advancements and shifting consumer behaviors.

• Embracing Change: Marcelo and Maurício discuss the necessity for professionals in both fields to embrace change and adapt to the evolving demands of the market.

Insights based on numbers:

• Marcelo's career trajectory, from architecture and design to teaching and founding his studio, illustrates the value of a diverse skill set in navigating the complex interplay between design and marketing.

• The reference to Embraer, the third-largest aircraft manufacturer, underscores the scale and impact of strategic design in large-scale industries.

Dreamers and Doers, welcome to Podbrand, a podcast about design, strategy, and innovation.

In 2024, we celebrate a remarkable occasion, the 99th anniversary of the Art Deco movement, an aesthetic force that revolutionized design and architecture.

Podbrand, aligned with the principles of innovation and elegance that characterize Art Deco, pays tribute to this movement that transcended time, influencing the way we perceive and create beauty, leaving a legacy that continues to inspire design to this day.

This reflects our passion for ways that combine functionality with a touch of magic.

I am Maurício Medeiros, consultant in strategic design, mentor and author of the book Árvore da Marca, simplifying branding.

Today we have with us Marcelo Teixeira.

He is a designer, architect, teacher and rocker, and brings vast knowledge and experience in these territories.

With a remarkable career as a former head designer at Embraer, the third largest aircraft industry in the world, and decades dedicated to teaching and coordination in various disciplines of design, architecture and marketing in higher education institutions, he is also the founder of Estudio Marcelo Teixeira, and will bring us insights on the convergence of these areas in business.

Marcelo, welcome.

Very nice to see you again.

Thank you for the invitation, after more than 10 years.

It's more, right?

Put years there.

Thank you very much for the invitation to this program that is taking a very nice, high-level discussion.

Thank you very much for having qualified people who believe in our creative area.

Certainly, I thank you, Marcelo, for accepting the invitation.

It is an honor to have you here today at the POD Brand.

And above all, with your experience, which is practically unusual in the field of design, for those who are not in São José dos Campos, which is aviation design, but above all, your experience in architecture and design, and also in teaching, where marketing was and is part of the disciplines that you have been teaching for many years.

Entering the theme, in the current dynamic scenario, the intersection between design and marketing, plays a crucial role in shaping the perception of a brand's value.

I start by asking you how effective collaboration between design and marketing can transform the perception of a brand's value in the market, while at the same time addressing and overcoming common challenges in the alignment of these two areas that are fundamental in the business.

With my multimedia background, people say, you are an architect, a designer, I don't know, what do you need me to be?

I am a processist, let's put it that way.

My side, where I found myself in reality, in this crazy mix of worlds, was the strategic design, where it is a design of process, period.

You want orange, you draw the liquefier and put the fruit there, and what you need will come out.

For many years, a few years ago, when I took this path, I was very criticized, saying, you are a bit of a scoundrel, right?

Man, today the process is very important within an institution, an organization, and then, in turn, it derives things.

Based on this concept, my life has changed.

I am an architect by blood, let's call it that, an urban architect, there is a process X that we continue to teach, a lot of knowledge with students from 1914, with theses, the design too.

And then, this alignment of these two things, or of these various branches, arises from the moment I met marketing, let's say, in its essence, and, in turn, the fusion, you commented, the two disciplines, do they walk in parallel, do they compete?

This bias of strategic design is born, in its essence, from the pure marketing strategic planning, with great references, the affirmation in the heart of this user, of this potential, with the powerful design tools, of tangibility, of all this, and when it merges, it becomes a method, a very powerful process, which is the talk of strategic design.

So, I think, and then some other names were taken, which, in fact, did not lose the essence of projecting something, or detecting a need outside and projecting it.

So, I think the two sciences, let's call it that, many think not, but they are complex sciences, complete and complex, that complement each other, they still have a lot, they have a great challenge, not only this story that many people talk about competition, but, on the contrary, when, in my walks around the world, that you commented, I have worked with aviation, I think there I had a good baggage in the question of what is the real marketing, or how can this be potentialized, how is this a powerful tool of action, for the strengthening of brand and perception of things?

And we see that both design and marketing, parentheses, have improved a lot, but there is still a gigantic challenge to be perceived as value, because if we think about it, marketing is the cornet of communication, and design is what will launch things, all organizations, CNPJs, should have these two sciences embedded, and not only in engineering, and we don't have it yet, it was much worse when I started, when I had hair, but now it has improved a lot, popularized, but we still have this deficit, so I think the whole essence has absurd values, but they are perhaps, like everyone else, in this current whirlwind of behavioral change, everyone needs to recycle, and in turn, within a comparative framework between design and marketing, design was forced, it's almost like a tsunami, it came in and there was no way to swim against it, what was the great basis?

The multidisciplinarity.

So design has become a little more palatable, and marketing is still a little behind, in terms of products, but both still need to have a gigantic role ahead, they are powerful, but they need to show more as value.

There are two areas with a certain creative synergy, and the collaboration between design and marketing can be a little complex, well thought out strategies are decisive to create a harmonious and productive work environment.

How can strategies be developed to ensure this collaboration between design and marketing, and that it results in synergy, avoiding conflicts?

I think maybe one of the first, I mentioned, when design comes from that context of generating things, it was very forcibly, I have a story here, take it, but I don't like it, bow to me, this was a bit of the magic of this communication, that marketing itself strengthened a lot, the Americans, all that history, pure-blood marketing, where it goes up and down, and in turn, the operations within design are the same thing, you need to keep inventing stories to be able to generate needs, and it goes down the same thing, in the generation of products, etc.

With the evolution, where today the thumbs up or down has a violent power, the networks brought voices, saying, I don't want, I don't want, and that's it, but it's the best, for whom, how?

So today there is a gigantic discussion, maybe an evolution that marketing stopped in time, which is the Internet studiologists, I usually joke that today we have guys who understand everything, but in a superficiality that I'm a little worried about, in the future, marketing has always been the salvation of labor, and now digital marketing, and what will be the next story?

So there are some bases that need to be reviewed, in that sense, that design, as I had commented, this multidisciplinarity and transdisciplinarity, it had the need to look for new areas of knowledge to maintain itself, so, for example, this story of creating demand, let's put a package on force, people need it, are they needing it?

Who are they?

You are also a designer, in our curricular axis, there is no such thing, or there wasn't in the past, for whom am I drawing?

I'm drawing, we used to joke, even today I joke with the students, it seems that when we are suggesting a possibility of launching something, there are already three or four proposals drawn on the wallet, then you stop and say, but for whom are you going to draw?

Then it got stuck, so we have a process, unfortunately, which is drawing, then argument, that the strategic design, which is this function, this fusion of the two, gets in check, I need to understand the pains, needs, to generate something, to really be validated, so I think the strategies are in that sense, to get together and to look for hands, I think the great culture that we are behind for it to be established in the 21st century, which is the culture of co, I joke, we are living in the era of cocos, co-living, co-working, co-labs, are not yet effective, so this shows a need, a need of I need the other, so design had to look at the market and say, you have a way of calling the name and last name of the guy, come here, economists, Schumpeter, what is innovation?

Come here, administration, and in turn, contribute in a generous way of powerful tools that we have to appropriate, people say that SWOT, for example, SWOT is a design tool, it is not an administration tool, which was widely used by administrators, so I think the big secret is, in this whole culture, to stay alive, I need to give a hand and strengthen the culture of co-labs.

It is very pertinent this observation about collaboration and about the cos that generate synergy between different professions and professional activities, one of my guests was Edson Matsu, who was for decades the creative director of Grendene, Melissa, Ipanema, and Edson founded Matsu & Co, which is his consulting company, where the concept is co-creation, and it starts exactly from this principle that you also raise, the importance of always doing with the other, the actions that aim at the same goal, this also comes with a certain relationship to my new question, where clear and aligned goals are established in a company, you usually have the best results, and the congruence between design and marketing goals is vital for this to result, especially in the long term.

In relation to the definition of short and long-term goals, what are the practices to ensure that they are aligned with both marketing and design goals, in favor of the goal you have in the company?

One thing is to work, for example, I managed to create a very cool path, first to learn inside an industry, a leading industry, where there is no error in the aircraft, there is no leaning, sometimes people say, Marcelo, you're kind of tough, kind of Chinese, but my training is complex, I come from a traditional family, with my father and mother, I couldn't wear underwear in my house, because my mother was there, my father, so I came from that footprint, of respect, of something in that sense, I served the barracks, when I entered college I became a military man, I was forced to wear that suit, so it's a matter of yes, sir, no, sir, then I went to train inside an Embraer, where there is a military culture, which is not bad, on the contrary, there is a very strong question of discipline, before my first creative influence, it was with the orientals, the Japanese, I won a scholarship to study in Tokyo, study art, I was still small, in GIS pastel course, manga that I participated, so I always participated with this whole colony, so this question of discipline, for me it was always very evident, and it culminated in my career as follows, to work with a product that has no mistakes, and to put the icing on the cake, how I charm a trillionaire, in the business market, which also has no mistakes, there is a maximum that does not exist, a second opportunity to cause a first good impression, so this for me comes in the head, so the tolerances start, then I had to learn within Embraer, and other companies that I was a consultant in the world, and I worked with the Germans, so the Germans are rigid in the matter of process, so my training is a little complex, I went later to school, to put the roles of marketing, the roles of design, architecture, and now, after a few years, I started to equalize this whole story, so I see that it is not very clear within the industry, there is a discourse within the university, or within the schools, that this has this power, in the case of design or marketing, but when we fall within the industry, no matter how much modernity there is, and if things have been discussed, extremely important today, the organizational structure does not change, the issue of capital injection, the result, the process, the human being there, and in a contrasting way, where the great innovations come from, we have the war industry, which unfortunately is like that, but the great glasses that we use today, now I think this week will come out, if I'm not mistaken, the Apple of mixed reality, this comes from where?

From the culture of the fighter pilot, that he cannot blink, so as not to lose focus there, and now it's inside my house, playing video games, so it comes from this story, and it's no use wanting to erase it, we're talking about objectives, before the objectives, the defining roles, for example, marketing, something that I was quite surprised, is that within several organizations, there is a division, where marketing, as everyone understands, within schools, I am a marketing professional, I do events within the company, so it is the front line, and the part of thinking about the strategy, how to work, the act, the pulsation, where are we going, which is the rudder there, they call it market intelligence, that there are no marketing professionals working, there are engineers, then you say, man, we've already started to burn at the start, the management part is done by other professionals, and the marketing professional is only in a superficial view, not that it is negative, but everyone wants, let's work with stationery, or let's do the event, this is very superficial in relation to the power that this science can express, so I think again, it opens the possibility, hits again in the history of collaboration, other areas of knowledge that work on this issue of cadence, appropriate this marketing, and design is one of them, I think that in this, specific goals begin to arise, within an organization, market intelligence is the strategic part, product launch, deep research of knowledge, who is the user, that thing, test and come back, and the marketing group is much more focused in the area of ​​communication, I'm going to do the event, I'm going to inform the launch, etc.

So maybe this story needs to be revised for marketing to incorporate this story, not only in design, but only in this great powerful area that marketing represents.

With the advent of digital media, which replaced the power that television had in the past, marketing is having to reinvent each new discovery within this new territory, the application stores, all the offers of services that are, for example, digital, all the services that are, so, new, innovations, which are exponential, a year and four months, a year and three months ago, the Deep-T chat went live, in 2022, and today we have, so, dozens of new solutions every week, that compete with the Deep-T chat in other deliveries and some even using the Deep-T chat resources, but it's amazing how it has evolved, and this, marketing needs to follow, because people, but especially the new generations, have this medium as a point of contact with brands, with business, it's impressive.

I even have a chart that I can share with you in this chat, there's a chart of artificial intelligence, where you, it's beautiful, it's a color disc, of possibilities and tools in all the areas you can imagine, we call it ChatGPT, which is the manager of all the crap, we need to be the GPT, the manager of all the crap, but we attribute it to him, so, ChatGPT is one of the tools of textual production, but it has graphic production, image production, and then we start to play like this, but it's very new, it depends on what's new, Adobe, for example, has been incorporating artificial intelligence into the tools for 12 years, Photoshop, creating the basics to be able to do those things we used to do, today it's all automatic, so those versions of do appear now, man, they've been capping for a long time, well, in this avalanche of pandemic, and everything else, we're in this conflict, as I said, we're 24 years late, the culture of collaboration is born at the turn of the century, but everyone says, unfortunately the pandemic happened, we lost, it was tragic, but if it hadn't happened and tried to put the train on the track, we would be much more outdated, today we see in the big centers, I used to live in São José dos Campos, now I'm in São Paulo, in São Paulo at the time of the pandemic, I was afraid, of course I'm afraid of the virus, but there wasn't a person, a living soul walking, only the motoboys, they were the ones who moved the whole city, because they had to bring food to the crowd, look what a hardcore class, which is undervalued, but it was unbelievable, and I don't know if you realize it, or you're out, you're with or out, and with this joke, there are people thinking, let's go back to the old normal, so in that sense, I get scared, as you commented, this avalanche and this agility of the contemporary world, I read today a post, professions that can end with the departure of artificial intelligence, and so on, we are living the 4th industrial revolution, and one of the topics there, there are marketing professionals, I stopped and said, my God, it's a lever that I just commented, the part of strategic thinking, they haven't yet taken over, and they should, because these events communicate today, a little prompt that you dominate there, will do, so this is very sad, we are talking like this, but this happened now, no, every turn of the century, every revolution turn, revolutions are not tools, they are behaviors that society adopts you, at the time of the first or second industrial revolution, steam there, and that people who made the horseshoes, they had to turn to be able to create that metal to the wheel, so this pain, this whole thing, always existed in the inflection points, and now we are talking, for example, my wife is 44 years old, she took a dating course, I assure you that we could not take a penny of this function of hers, neither at the time nor now, who remembers that?

Who still thinks about Telex?

Man, things are coming like an avalanche, so as we started our chat, everyone needs to reinvent themselves, and the hard for yesterday, this is a hardness that we are suffering, with stress problems, mental problems there.

Well, I'm from your wife's club, because I also did the dating course, the first training with a diploma, I'm talking about the last century, of course.

I am too.

Another relevant point of what you commented, is that marketing, because of the availability of access to communication, which used to be restricted to those who paid more, for radio, newspapers, television, and there was also a time of the magazines, which are now extinct, any professional today who has a good product, a knowledge of communicating and doing an activity, can play a marketing role of his own, I'll give you an example, my doctor, Dr. Fernando Lemos, was awarded three weeks ago with the IBEST award of the most influential doctor in Brazil, and he has almost 6 million followers on his YouTube channel, and to get an idea, he clinics and does the consultations, the surgeries and everything else in the city of Rosário, which is in the interior of Rio Grande do Sul, on the border with Uruguay, so it's almost 8 hours from Porto Alegre by car, and there are patients from various parts of the world and from all over Brazil to consult with him there, to see the importance of the professional putting himself on the market using these tools, and he does it with his cell phone, the impact of this is impressive.

And what I see, perhaps the non-evolution of people, is that there is a term, let's talk about our time, I'm turning 50 soon, and we used to say a lot, man, you have to be rough and everything else, now there's a cool term called resilience, man, that your whole life you had to turn around, take a hit, get up, fell, swallow the cry, in our time, swallow the cry and let's go, now it's more amenable, there's a punk load on top of this game, which the audience may not have understood, but all these changes are happening in a gigantic way and then there are maybe people who don't want to get out of their comfort zone, they start saying, no, this is wrong, this is bad, meanwhile, while these criticisms are coming down, the world is changing in the behavioral part, and I think you commented, I even remembered a fact that you used to have for product disclosure, marketing was the one that had a little secret of success, I said, labor salvation, if you dominated this science, man, you were in heaven, literally, because you were the guy on TV, you had all the media in your hand, he even knocked on the journalists, very well, you were on TV and everything, today, and from this type of function, opinion formers began to emerge, which were counted on the finger, just like today, it is still being counted on the finger, but what I'm trying to expose, the change of profile and the change of function, for example, you wanted a product to work, hire your countrywoman, Gisele Bintx, the woman put her hand and everything becomes gold, but how much did this action cost?

I'm not saying it wasn't worth it, or I would have to put a model, or someone, I need a TV, no, it costs a fortune, the media, or a magazine, etc.

Today, this change has been happening, the pandemic was the one that made it worse, the TV shows were, put the camera here, put the camera there, today anyone can be a streamer, I started, the pandemic closed everything, I started calling my friends, how are they?

I want to know, it's a hell of a horror, I said, let's do this via Instagram, ok, there were a lot of people, then I received, wow, you're innovating, I said, damn it, how can I innovate?

If I ask my friends, and record this speech, it's innovation, we are far behind, and then I had to go after streaming tools, just like you, the equipment you have here is fantastic, the way of transmission, it's for a guy who made radio and TV in his traditional training, suddenly things start to emerge, we launched some products, at one time for Cavaleira, a wooden bike, together with Júnior Dilbar, from Parma Móveis, and we made the Cavaleira line of furniture, very well, then we launched a wonderful bike, customized, it's even on the site, and his line of furniture, as well as Armani, let's launch a pop line, hard core, rock and roll, where a lot of people, several celebrities of this world, rock and everything else, in Oscar Freyre, there was a luxury pop-up store, which is a wonderful street, in the luxury district of Paulista, Brazilian, that we were going to launch, we arrived, and there was a lot of people, a DJ, a party, then I started talking, but who is that guy you don't know?

No, he has 12 million followers, what does he do?

He talks, he sings, he's a rapper, then you say, wow!

So the way to negotiate, to make yourself a brand, to communicate, has definitely changed at least 4 years ago, that's what you said, the popular people took over, there were voices, so today all that difficulty that you had to release a song, I'm not criticizing, but it's the same thing, it's not a value judgment, is it necessary for a publisher to have this reach?

In addition to producing this, I question a lot, I produce fantastic papers of innovation, etc., for me to publish somewhere, I don't have to pay money for the guy, the crazy guy, and then in the end, what's left for you as an author?

We are living in the era of artists, suddenly an internet, which I think I believe too much in this story, maybe marketing hasn't realized it yet, wow, we're here talking, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, I don't know what time they will hear our, or will watch our chat, but it's eternal, as soon as you want to take it off the internet, ok.

What is the scope of this?

I have mapped, I go to a classroom, and we don't realize these gains, you go to an auditorium in Mackenzie, for example, it was in the morning, Solene's opening of our semester, there is an auditorium of 900 people, top!

900 people, maybe in a sitting of a live, you, puff!

I teach 30 students, or 15 students, when you open a live of 100 people, we are almost in an auditorium, look at the scope of this, so this medium has changed, so I think marketing has popularized, and I think it's kind of, he's not getting it, who has the traditional network, is almost losing his hand, because anyone who has the engagement, has become a marketing professional, who is taking, the exchange currency itself, you just talked to your doctor, how many millions of followers, look at this, it's a new currency, the new oil.

Exactly, it's very stimulating.

Measure the impact of design on marketing strategies, is an aspect, I would say, fundamental, to understand the return on investment, and the added value to the business.

What methods can companies use to measure and assess the impact of design on their marketing strategies?

Well, I've always enjoyed, although it's more theoretical, academic and such, I've always thought design is a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method, it's a method.

Again, but do I master this item or this subject?

But the funny thing was the practical experience within an organization where periodically the management process changes thinking about what?

Improvement of processes, reduction of costs, mitigation of risks, to reach positive results in the future.

And then comes the injection of spirit of the market, that the planning was made 10 in 10, then 5 in 5, 2 in 2, and now maybe day after day, because of the way things are changing and the rejection of people.

It's very funny how the information is changing.

If someone, now our friend there put Neurolink, the pharmaceutical industry, So, zero, start the convincing process, come back, come back, and when you establish it, change it again.

So, you know, my fringe was getting lost in this period of, damn, how do I adapt?

And the design, I never saw it yet, correct me if I'm wrong, no post saying that the designer profession would leave the world from artificial intelligence.

There was a day when a guy sent me a message, I'm studying, I'm doing a doctorate in technology, so I'm interested in everything.

What's going on there, and so on.

My first instructor said, you're going to go crazy like this.

I said, I'm going, I'm already, we just cancel it.

And then one of the solution sellers there said, you knew, right, that the architect's profession was going to stop, right, it was going to lose, from this software, I said, wow, maybe it's the architects' fault, right, because we almost aimed at a waiter, right.

You go, who moves the interiors, for example, it's hard to do the project, but it's kind of dependent on the stores to be able to put it there, put the chair, put this, put that, man, in our role, in a little while, someone comes with artificial intelligence and says, what do I need to set up?

It's already happening.

Then the convenience stores fall, and more, right, it's already happening, it's already happened.

There's even a case that some, well, let me see, almost 7, 8 years ago, I came back at the end of the year, I went to change the floor of the studio, I was in another studio, here in São Paulo, and okay, I went to Leroy, Leroy, Leroy, I think Leroy, right, those big ones there, then when I got there very early, there was almost no one, as soon as I got there, you went to each booth, there was a kitchen set up, for example.

Then the guy came, looked, there was a picture of a person, let's talk about the popular, there was a picture of someone who was supposed to be the owner of that kitchen, a behavioral description of that guy, a color palette and the three-dimensional kitchen set up.

I looked at my wife and said, that's it, architecture doesn't work that way.

Today I bring this concept from the school of mixing design with architecture, for what?

For what, man?

Also for the human being, and if it's the interior, I haven't seen anyone yet hug the roof and say, wow, my house is wonderful, the guy goes and hugs the carpet, he feels, it's the touch and feel inside his environment.

Then you start to see that from that, maybe if the designer is the specifier of that, it's over.

The home center has already gone there, thought about this method, a little bit of the question you asked earlier, which is available and doesn't need anyone else.

Then I went to investigate, in the browser of this big home center, I don't remember who it was, you already had a lot of 3D models of your environment.

If you have an immersive reality glasses, you put it on and you'll be in there.

Then you press a button, you have a list of pieces and the budget in just over an hour.

What does that mean?

The architect is in the field, if he is doing the brass work, the budgeter, the renderer, the viewer.

So, how are all these dynamics happening from this model?

So, going back to this structure story, depending on the type of solution or economic situation, it changes and it's effective.

Bringing to the culture of collaboration, Marcelo speaking, I had both experiences.

The multidisciplinary, the matricial, it is more challenging, because you need to have a voice, there is a conflict of ideas, but I think that for the current situation, today it is more powerful.

Otherwise, you keep working with the same people.

This whole evolution requires, from almost all professions, a new attitude, which is the long life learning, which is the learning of new theories, new techniques, new disciplines, to adapt to this reality.

Because, in fact, the offers are much more elaborated for people and much more accessible too.

I think these biases, maybe, I remember two points here, when we have this more technical conversation, the architect and the designer have to work together, so I will be more prone to defend a movement structured in function.

However, what rules the world of business, there is a saying, which I just remembered, of the Pope of leadership, Jack Welch, who was one of the heads of GE, that I think this gave a chancelled in the matter of transdisciplinary, he said something like this, I don't need to know everything, but I need to have the best on my side.

Man, this would be the structuring of a transdisciplinary department, do you agree?

There is a person there who dominates the process, knows how to get in, he's not even there, not that he doesn't know, but he's not even there with the screw, because he knows the bigger context.

So this is a more generous thing, like, man, I'm not going to stay there, I need the guy to tighten the screw, but I don't need to tighten it, I need to understand the real notion.

So I think this governs the business world a lot, regardless of whether there are connections, etc., but it's almost a creation of a leadership profile.

And this organizational structure are people who follow these foundations.

Considering your vast long-term experience in several higher education institutions, what are the most significant learnings that have impacted your journey as a design teacher, and also in the areas transversal to it?

I usually joke that I'm a bit of a hybrid there, where I'm an architect by blood, I did architecture and urban planning, I did a master's degree and everything, but I have a vast career in the field of design, I learned design in practice and then I did a specialization.

So I live in this world with the semi-god architects and the designers.

So it's like a cream, you say, man, when these guys fall, they're going to be angry.

So the world is almost on top of a table and a carpet, it's swaying, you have to lower the ball a little bit in that sense.

So I think we can minimize these challenges a little bit.

I think what I learned the most, especially in these transversal areas, is this question of needing the other, transidentity.

So, I have a design department at Embraer, where I worked a lot with engineers, from all the specialties, where they taught me horrible wonderful things.

And in the end I was even fighting with the guys and being more of an engineer than them.

Damn, this is possible.

Once people said, it's not possible to create the solar ceiling on the plane.

And I had drawn this crap, I said, damn, how cool would it be, right?

There's a window here, what's in there?

Oh, you can't, it asks for structure.

Man, I went home, I sat with a group there, I said, it's not possible, no, no, no.

And we came up with a solution.

The solution is to transfer the window up, it's here, right?

So, in the end, I discarded this window chat later, but it had nothing to do with structure.

It had to do with a sun ray there.

That is, like that talk about that front of the microwave, right?

That it's all black there, there are some little balls.

Man, but let's put glass?

You won't be able to see the little stars, so take it off, right?

It's all going to be black.

Then we convinced engineering that, man, it's not for that, it's for that.

Our petulance, right?

This freedom to look at the neighbor and say, man, how cool you do it.

Let's do it together?

So, I think this gave me a great case.

I think it's another thing, right?

With this experience of transdisciplinarity, you understand, or try to understand, or get closer to the pain of the other.

So, free from prejudices.

I think everyone is prejudiced.

And it's healthy to be.

Closing quotes, right?

What would that be?

I don't know.

So, I have a prejudice of that.

I need to know.

Now, if I keep acting meanly, it's a matter of character, and we're not going to talk about it.

But I need, I have to, naturally this happens.

It's like being afraid.

You don't have, no, I'm not afraid.

So, man, you're crazy, because you're going to set fire, you're going to jump from parachute to parachute.

I'm not afraid.

So, they are wonderful actions that cause our balance as human beings, right?

So, I think because I live with everything and everyone like this, I try more and more to step on, which is a marketing rule, step on the other customer's shoe.

What's his pain?

If the guy is so...

There's something behind that story.

And it takes time.

It's painful.

A lot of beating you take, because you're going to move where you shouldn't, right?

Because the person is hurt there.

You still go there and poke.

So, let her poke.

Vomit.

Balance.

We come to an agreement together.

This, I think, is one of the great operating modes that I was able to learn.

And I think being open to this kind of exchange, even with my family, my daughters.

My creation department today, innovation, one is 20, will be 20, the other is 18.

But they live with me professionally here since...

I took her to the studio when she was 3, 4 years old.

They said that one was going to be a Barbie designer, and the other a Hello Kitty designer.

I said, wow, someone has a lot of money.

And in the end, as we'll see later, I lost both to health.

One is doing phonology, she's a brilliant singer, she's going to work with musicals, super artist.

And the other one is going to do odontology.

She wants to get into the digital odontology part, because she likes animation.

Beauty, right?

Industry 4.0 in the vein there.

So this exchange, how many times...

People, how is this here?

They teach me a lot, right?

The platforms...

So I think this opening has to be given.

And I think I learned a lot as a leader.

If you think about it, I didn't lead anything.

I was already thinking, what do I...

I'm 48.

What have I already prepared in this story?

You commented, I didn't even imagine, I thought, I was the design leader of the third largest airplane company in the world.

Then I set up the department with 30 designers, with an absurd multidisciplinarity.

We got to put the design at such a punk level, that today one of my collaborators, that I hired years ago, is the vice president of design at Embraer.

Wonderful!

Legacy!

I didn't get there, but I opened the potholes there.

It's the legacy to be left.

Another great designer is coordinating a marketing design department.

It's a crazy strategy of one of the largest medical companies in the country.

You say, damn, man, it was worth it!

To fish, understand the sensitivity of each one there, and say, do you have the skill?

No, I don't.

Go, like those big fathers, go, go.

This is something I was able to capture in my training, while studying cases.

There were two cases, an emblematic case that I remember is when a designer, which is the thing you put on your face, you say, damn, man, you're not the designer.

He comes in, he gives a belt, proven a cool painting scheme with the client.

I mean, there came a time, a designer who was a junior, the guy had just joined Embraer, he sat like this, Marcelo, come here, your belt is giving 30 centimeters, 300 millimeters.

You're crazy, man, what is it, man?

It has to be born from scratch, and in a tenuous way, and go there to the tail, but that's it.

No, it's 30 and such.

I'm sitting, sit here. 30 centimeters, you're complaining, right?

Very well.

The plane is 30 meters.

What do you think?

Wow, right?

Isn't it wisdom?

Fuck, man, look.

So, from that break in the jump, you say, fuck, what an animal.

You have to learn, in everything and everything.

And the other case is, I'm very self-observant, I know I have a nice know-how, I have a great, impeccable training on this track that I have done there, but I get into things quietly.

I go into a meeting and say, wait, where am I?

I'm not going to give any sour guesses.

And in this one, I learned how, why this.

I went to accompany, when I was an intern, a specification of a plane.

My boss went to present it to the Vice President of Europe, a painting scheme.

Let's go with me?

Okay.

I said, I'm quiet here, I'm quiet there.

The guy asked him like this, why did you make a track?

In English, the meeting was all in English.

The guy was in English and coordinated Europe.

Why did you make a track?

And he said like this, I don't know, Pei, because Rico likes it.

I said...

Then the guy stopped, we were still presenting on a board, the whole illustration had an airbrush and everything, and there was a vegetable that you put on top, a silk, so as not to hurt.

When he said, Rico likes it, he took it and closed it like this.

How did the guy get rich?

He was born rich.

Okay, when you know how to conceptualize, you come back.

He threw it away and left.

Man, I went under the table, I went under the rug, I said, what a shame.

I need to learn to argue.

So, it's the experience.

This is my management style, often questioned, you let the guys work freely, why do I have to be a pirate parrot?

I bring this experience of more than 20 years, 30 this year, 33 I think, mixed in the academy and in practice.

Very interesting this experience of this vice-president of Embraer Europe at the time, the attitude he took, demanding and valuing the context that led to that solution, and that was not clear to those who were presenting.

So, very interesting.

Well, Marcelo, we have reached the pinga-fogo.

There are three quick questions that I ask all the guests, and that always, to me, cause a lot of intellectual curiosity.

The first one, what are the virtues of a successful entrepreneur?

Jesus loves it.

Come on.

Maybe I'll translate more, but I think persistence is the first.

And there are some relationships like this, you don't go to the gym, you can't pull a bicep the next day, you're with him, no, a little bit every day, which you may never see, you'll see after a year or two, some kind of result, this is persistence.

Another one that we talked about here is resilience.

Fall, get up, cry, okay, cry fast, and run after it.

Another thing is openness to the new, free of prejudices.

So, you have this discomfort, go investigate, break with everything and walk, take it in your hand and go.

And I think, to eliminate all this, the question of a diversified repertoire.

Because I can deal with others, and I need to understand the pain of others.

I'm talking about empathy maps, there are pains.

So, I don't have absolute truth.

Because I see, and again, I learned, especially this issue of diversified repertoire, the designer sometimes doesn't understand that he has a powerful tool in his hand and is asked, he's almost like Mr. M. Let go of the cardboard here.

And you say you're a designer, wow, you change, the guy is like this, so he must know how his house is, how his car is.

You know that chat, right?

How many times do I have to ask you too?

Where did I get this story from?

When all my clients are looking for wow, to exceed expectations.

And then, how do you get to wow?

Before, I went to configuration meetings all over the world, where I was supposed to do what?

Know what color was the carpet, what color was the fabric, right?

Back there, when we met, we specified a concept plane, it was published, it was a scandal, that thing, it was really cool.

We published in one of the only magazines of the world's aircraft interior, Aircraft Interiors, wonderful.

I was in Cannes talking about that concept, it was really cool.

And then, to get to this, you can't be an immediate designer.

I was going there, Marcelo, you have 5 minutes of fame with this guy, okay.

From there, I was going there, because I had 5 minutes of fame, so it has to be fast.

He started the chat saying, let's talk about armor, let's talk about orchid cultivation, let's talk about transatlantic travel, at least let's stop.

And then, what broke the ice?

I'm setting up more intimate with the guy, I'm at his house, I'm the subject of his desire to culminate the wall.

That means I need to have a wide repertoire.

I think this is a great virtue, or should be, of a successful entrepreneur.

What differentiates dreamers from doers?

Dreamers and doers, the prefix, one do and the other dream.

And they all go through the pain.

But I think, taking the jokes aside, I think it's action.

It's the protagonist, the proactivity, which is sometimes very misunderstood.

Proactivity is jumping in front of the other.

No, you have a role that goes from here to there.

Respecting the limit of the other.

I think this is very strong.

And I had a teacher, I think he's already deceased, one of the first guys who worked with sculpture, once I said, I'm a kind of amateur in art.

He said, it's already started well.

It was because amateurs are the ones who love.

I said, I had never thought of that.

Amateur, it's the amateur.

And then a great friend, a philosopher, he says, who loves anticipates.

So, in that sense, the difference between the two is that there's always this side, this ant that gets there and does.

It's not uncritical.

And also the makers, not that they don't dream, but they have something more.

An extra plus, as they say.

Yes.

To make his dream come true.

I think that's about it.

And the last one, what is design?

Wow, Grila, short and thick.

I think there's something that accompanies me, a definition that accompanies me, and also bothers me, which is from a guy like John Eskett.

Design is the extension of the human arm.

And now let's talk about arm, leg, everything, the interior.

If we think that we were born naked, with nothing, and we die with nothing, why do we need so much?

We are fragile.

We don't know.

To have a relationship is to sit in a car, on an avenue, you get out of your car height and go to the height of the bumper.

If that crap touches you, you're already in the field.

So, the fragility of the human being.

In that sense, I need things, I need to support myself.

When the man was going to kill the bison, he killed him in the fight.

He was hungry, but he went there, he fought.

I think after about 5 days, he had to recompose himself, he was going to eat something.

So, he needed to support himself, to create the devices.

So, I think this extension of the human arm, the design, I think it's very powerful in this whole issue.

I need to sit, I need to create an object to sit.

I need to walk, I have an object to walk, from the point of view of the object.

But we can expand this for everything.

Perfect.

Very well.

We are now in one of our most researched sessions on our website, which is the indication of readings.

What books have impacted your journey?

Well, I think if I'm going to bring it there, this is something that a lot of people don't realize, but I think with the doctorate now, I had an orientation that changed my life.

Every time it goes like this, you go on and on.

Which is the theoretical referential universe.

What does that mean?

How did you get to what you are?

Who brought you here?

And I always questioned, my God, why am I thinking like this?

What a pain in the ass!

This is a luxury design, this is a jigsaw puzzle.

I went to launch a product in Milan in 2010, if I'm not mistaken, and it was pinnacle.

Pinnacle with a luminaire, I was making a luminaire or pieces of hardware, which was a train, which I turned into a chair.

You say, but where does this come from?

So, I always questioned myself a lot, and now, in my doctoral process, I went to do it, since the first...

Are you Platonic or are you Aristotelian?

And it comes, and it comes, and it comes.

And in the end it culminates with the technology of Embraer.

So, for example, in a first phase, if you are what you are today, it's because you planted something back there.

Because it's clear, my professional life, I love shoes, I was thinking, one of the first, and something with Holland, I asked my family, they are from Minas Gerais, and if you go a little further, Portuguese and Spanish came, what does it have to do?

A book I read, which was a book called Os Patins de Prata, which is The Silver Skates, a collection of kids, in 1972, 1975, which was a story about self-improvement, of a guy who designed, made sculptures of shoes, and the first time I went to Holland, I was fascinated, wow, it really exists!

After that, I designed a lot of shoe collections, and then we met, changed fashion from that whole story of accessories and everything else.

Another phase of life, the book itself that I just mentioned, was The Industrial Drawing, from 1997, by John Eskett, which for me is the following, I entered an architecture faculty, wanting to draw objects, and then the year I entered, the discipline fell, I said, I do not believe, I almost did civil engineering, which was very strong in that sense, and then I had to rely on other things, for this multidisciplinary approach, but there it clarified me in such a way, what was the concept of industrial drawing, so this is a beautiful reference too.

More recently, a book by Simon Sinek, Starts with Why, which is an essence of the project, how do I start with the story, I'm always going with the how, with the what, why am I doing this?

Then you come to the question of purpose, these readings are great, I love much more technical, more technical books, because I say, if you put it inside the blender, the psychologist will do very well, the geologist, it is very broad, holistic the thing, and I think one of the last books I read, the doctorate, I think it was a little desperate, which was The Shock of the Future, by Alvin Toffler, I think in 1998, I do not know if it's a reissue, but he shows what we were going to go through, he is a futurist, which are few today, the new generation, futurists are us, or we were us, who believed that I want to think ahead, one day I want to be a doctor, one day I want to do the podcast, the podbranding, today the generation is immediate, it is not futuristic, it is the presentist, and Toffler himself, and some other authors, deal with this, a generation that wants everything now, and if tomorrow I survive this now, it's profit, how are we going to get there, how is it going to be the end of humanity?

So there are some emblematic works, which have brought a lot of encouragement and discomfort, at the same time, a lot of acquisition of repertory.

Perfect, just a reminder, to those who watch us, to facilitate access, we make available the links of these books, directly in the description below.

In addition, I invite you to explore the book page on our website, podbrand.design, there we have a curatorship with more than 250 books, by our guests, be sure to check it out, and the link is also in the description.

Going to the end, I bring the question from Débora Brum, founder of Comunicativa Fonoaudiologia e Empresarial, and who was recently at the podbrand.

She formulated this question without having any idea that you would be our next guest.

Her question, what do you believe that artificial intelligence will not be able to replace?

Well, for the students, we are already dead, it will replace everything, it will be just a living robot, and I'm out, I don't want to be a robot, I want to relate, it's so nice to see a hug, a friend like that, how cool, it's been a long time since we did that, the whole mask, that whole thing, but I think that all this technology process, and at the same time, we also attribute some things that personify, the fault is technology, the pencil draws without me touching it, it's a tool, but I think that artificial intelligence will not replace, it will replace emotions and human feelings.

Man, it's very complex, although there is a gigantic research, there are people, there are some strands that are drawing the human being itself, but I think it's kind of far from happening, I don't know if in my generation we'll see that, because I still think so, we have evolved too much in the concepts, in some discussions, which are extremely pertinent, as if we were making an analogy, we are going down a slope with a watermelon truck, then someone braked, then the load goes backwards, and this load is happening here, so everyone is questioning, everything is wrong, when it comes back to establish, to create balance, then beauty, it will work, because I think that, why won't it replace?

The human being needs to learn and we are seeing that this is being far away, and it's not because of technology, it's a matter of character, maybe in older times, how do I dominate a people?

I go there and kill him and it's over, the Vikings and everything else, we are living the same thing, and at the cost of what?

We are talking here in a good way, and there are wars, two or three wars happening, and then you ask the younger ones, is that how you fight?

Stay tuned!

So I think closing, we are looking a lot for technology, there are a lot of people studying hardware, software, and according to a great friend, Renan, he talks about humanware, what will the human being be?

So I think, in the face of all this discussion, how are we going to behave, if we can take it?

How can we take it?

This pressure, this issue of mental health, this issue we live today, the era of excesses, everything is excessive, so the story of the less is more, will it turn?

There was a tendency that no, for the generation, less is boring, because I need excess.

But, in short, the human being is still a thinking being, with overflowing feelings, that I think the machine cannot yet, in the short term, replace.

And if you could ask a single question to our next guest, what would it be?

A single question?

I think, how would it be, how would humanity face this avalanche of technology?

How would it be?

There is no rule, but how would it be?

How do we behave?

Is there any... a... a way out?

I don't know, some touch?

Very well, in the next episode we will have the answer to this question.

Marcelo, I want to thank you very much, thank you for engaging in our purpose and for your willingness to share your knowledge.

It is a joy to meet a friend after so many years.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Likewise, I am very happy to be remembered, I have been following the program for a long time, when you launched it, I was very happy, the guy is active there, we make contact, I know there are ants in the world that are eating through the fangs, so I am very happy to be part of this hall, of our friendship of many years and to be able to contribute to your audience through my short knowledge.

That's it.

Thank you very much, it is an honor to have you at Podbrand.

See you soon!

To continue inspiring yourself and exploring more stories of transformation and growth, visit our website, podbrand.design.

You will find all the episodes and the curatorship of the books recommended by Marcelo and by all our guests.

Don't forget to subscribe and share this episode so that more people can also benefit from this journey of learning and self-discovery.

See you in the next episode here at Podbrand, the Design Podcast.