• Emotional Self-Control: Débora addresses the importance of emotional self-control, highlighting the need to manage instinctive reactions to promote constructive communications and avoid unnecessary conflicts.

• Active Listening: The episode emphasizes the relevance of active listening in assertive communication, noting how this skill is crucial to truly understanding the interlocutor and responding empathetically.

• Nonviolent Communication (NVC): Débora discusses NVC as a powerful tool for resolving conflicts, encouraging the clear and judgment-free expression of feelings and needs.

• Authentic Expression: The importance of genuinely communicating thoughts and feelings is explored, encouraging transparency and honesty in interactions without resorting to aggressiveness.

• Constructive Feedback: The episode addresses strategies for giving and receiving feedback effectively, aiming for personal growth and continuous improvement within corporate environments.

• Expectation Management: Débora talks about the importance of managing expectations in interactions, recognizing the needs behind expressed feelings and seeking consensual solutions.

• Impact of Communication on Leadership: The conversation touches on the influence of effective communication in leadership, highlighting how leaders who practice vulnerability and assertive communication can better connect with their teams.

Dreamers and Doers, welcome to Podbrand, the podcast about design, strategy and innovation.

In 2024, we celebrate a remarkable occasion, the 99 years of the Art Deco movement, an aesthetic force that revolutionized design and architecture.

Podbrand, aligned with the principles of innovation and elegance that characterize Art Deco, pays homage to this movement that has transcended time, influencing the way we perceive and create beauty, leaving a legacy that continues to inspire contemporary design, reflecting our passion for ways that combine functionality with the touch of magic.

I am Maurício Medeiros, consultant in strategic design, mentor and author of the BRAND TREE: simplifying the branding book.

Today we are going to unravel the universe of assertive communication with a guest who was recently in Japan giving a lecture on the subject.

Debora Brum is a profound communicative connoisseur, author of the book Comunicação Assertiva, Aprenda a Arte de Falar e Influenciar, and founder of the Fonoaudiologia Empresarial Comunicativa.

With over two decades dedicated to the improvement of human communication, she has transformed the way individuals and organizations interact and express themselves, and throughout this episode we will explore essential methods and practices that promote communicative efficiency, conflict resolution and the construction of stronger and more authentic relationships in the workplace.

Deborah, welcome.

Thank you. What a joy to talk to you, Maurício.

It is an honor to be here.

Thank you very much.

Deborah, I thank you for accepting the invitation.

It really is a great joy to have you on the podcast today, especially speaking of this expertise that you have and that impacts the day-to-day of anyone in any profession.

Exactly.

Entering the subject.

Thomas Gordon, who is a distinguished PhD psychologist, born in 1918.

He revolutionized interpersonal communication with his emphasis on listening and assertive communication.

Exactly the subject you are addressing.

And he is known for his effective relationship model and the I-message technique, which promotes the expression of feelings respectfully and a method without losing that encourages the consensual solution of conflicts, in line with the needs of today's corporate environment.

Assertive communication, according to Gordon, is not just about speaking with confidence, but about a sophisticated negotiating skill that values ​​both one's own voice and that of others, seeking a balance between expression and listening.

So, considering Gordon's rich contribution in communication, could you share with us how his thinking influences assertive communication models in your own work, which even has repercussions in a beautiful book?

In addition, you explore assertive communication deeply in your work.

Could you explain this concept practically and how we can develop and exercise this skill in the corporate context?

Gordon brought very strong and basic pillars for assertive communication.

His method speaks of three important skills, which are self-discipline, which today we speak of self-control or self-management, better than self-control, self-management of emotions.

It also speaks of comprehension through listening, which is a basic principle.

Assertive communication is a two-way street, it is not a monologue, so I need to be attentive and have a genuine interest in the other through listening, which Gordon talked a lot about, about listening and expression, this ability that we need to develop to express what we feel, what we think, in a respectful and empathic way.

So, for me, Gordon brings a model of horizontality in these relationships, not so vertical but horizontal, without the use of power, bringing a collaboration, a co-creation.

So, today, all of his principles are still very alive and have a lot to do with non-violent communication, which we will talk about soon.

So, assertive communication is nothing more than our ability to develop, we were not born with it, this is important to make it clear, it is an ability to be able to express what needs to be said, what I want to say, be it my feelings, my needs, in a clear, transparent and respectful way.

So, saying what needs to be said, choosing the best words, words that are not aggressive to the other, but words that express clearly what I want to say, in a clear and objective way.

Understanding who my interlocutor is, so, at the same time I speak, I am considering my listener; I adapt my speech; I use a language that is accessible to my interlocutor.

So, it is a care that I have, looking at myself and looking at the other.

Assertive communication also goes through voice control, through body language control, through listening.

So, it is a communication that frees us, I say, Maurício, when we learn we can say everything that needs to be said, without hurting, without offending people, and also leaving that position of submission, of passivity, our life opens up, expands.

I really like to talk about assertive communication, clarifying what is not an assertive communication.

So, those who live swallowing frogs, that a person who can't say what they think, they stay in internal dialogues, situations they don't like, they submit, or they omit themselves, or they victimize themselves.

This is a passive communication that imprisons us.

I am very concerned about what the other will think, what the other will say, and I keep to myself what I can't say.

On the other hand, there is that aggressive communication, which is when I don't have words in my mouth.

I say what I think with no filter.

It is that person who is a tractor; she runs over others.

And many times, those who have this communication, who think it is sincere, but it is an aggressive and disrespectful communication, people say, this is my way, I say what I think; I am transparent, but this is not assertive.

So, we need to find that balance.

Yes, it is possible to say what you think and feel, without offending, but also without submitting.

I was struck because you mentioned that this is a skill that can be learned.

And given the relevance of listening to you, and how this affects the whole life of the person, of any professional nature, including family, this should be a school subject, it should be a subject of learning in the school itself, as in the past, in my time, there was moral and civic education.

And civic, that's right.

Which was precisely the value, the question of community, of respect, of life, not only ours, but of the law.

Marshall Rosenberg, another PhD student, he was a remarkable American psychologist and international mediator.

He was recognized for developing the non-violent communication process, or CNV.

He was born in 1934 and founded and was the educational director of the Center for Non-Violent Communication.

CNV is an approach that encourages understanding and compassion in human interactions, and promotes this empathic and effective communication.

This technique emphasizes four key components, which are to observe without assessing, identify and express feelings, recognize underlying needs and make clear requests without demands.

So, Deborah, given your experience and knowledge in this approach, in the communication strategy, how do you see Rosenberg's non-violent communication in the resolution of conflicts that exist in organizations?

Could you detail the method and some practical elements and how it can be implemented to improve the dynamics of teams?

Yes.

Nowadays, non-violent communication is increasingly disseminated in companies and I am very happy to observe that communication is an important need that companies are dedicating themselves to and bringing opportunities for improvement.

It can be used in any context.

Leadership is extremely important to generate connection, to establish trust relationships.

The moment the leader needs to give feedback, CNV gives a basis to generate a more constructive and assertive feedback.

In conflict relations, it can be used with...

In dialogues between partners, with the client, it is an incredible tool.

And what I like most about CNV is that it...

It deconstructs a lot of things that we end up bringing to the dialogues without realizing that it is a matter of judgments, how the human being brings a communication that judges, that criticizes, it is a communication that is almost naturally negative.

And CNV deconstructs all of that.

So, the first element is to look at the fact and take away our judgment, which is very challenging.

So, I already bring...

For example, when I am going to talk to someone about something that is not appropriate, I already bring it as a criticism.

So, you never do what I ask, or you keep complaining, you are very dispassionate, or you are very dispassionate, and people focus on the person, personalize.

And CNV brings a look at the fact.

I stop criticizing the person and start looking at the fact, the action, what happened.

And this ends up generating less resistance, because the moment I criticize the person, they feel attacked and automatically they will want to retaliate and react, or defend themselves.

And CNV already brings a more peaceful air, not passive, but more peaceful.

So, look and criticize less.

I talk about how I felt about the fact, I will not accuse the person.

So, looking at the fact without judgment is something essential.

Then comes a look that today is still very difficult, which is to look at our feelings.

There is still a culture that talking about feelings shows a fragility.

When, in fact, this is what connects a human being with another human being, it is me showing my vulnerabilities.

Vulnerability today, we know, is a measure of courage.

Brené Brown speaks very well of this.

Leaders who show themselves more vulnerable are leaders who connect much more with teams.

So, looking at my feeling and being able to talk about my feelings while I look at the feeling of the other, I go to a conversation and identify, it's an exercise I do to see how the person is feeling.

Is she uncomfortable?

Is she angry?

What is causing this anger?

What is causing this discomfort?

So, I dive into the other's universe and I dive into myself.

So, it requires a lot of self-knowledge and also a lot of empathy to understand the other.

So, look at the feelings and then talk about the needs, because behind every feeling there is a need to be met or not.

This is what generates our feelings.

So, when I identify that something the person did made me angry or made me anxious or anxious, it was because some need I had was not met.

So, for example, I needed the project to finish on the agreed date, and the project is delayed.

My need was punctuality and delivery.

It didn't happen, and this is generating a feeling in me.

So, I bring this feeling to the person.

Look, I'm worried, I'm a little anxious, because we needed to deliver this project and it's not ready.

Then comes the next step, which is to make a request.

A request is not a requirement.

A request is not an indirect request.

It's a clear and positive request.

We can deliver.

What do you think about us finishing by the end of the week?

Is it possible?

When do you think it will be possible to finish?

So, tie it well.

CNV brings this finalization of a dialogue looking for a win-win solution, that is good for me and good for the other.

So, it can be used in all communication situations in companies.

The results are amazing.

It brings functional techniques to disarm this trigger.

Exactly, to disarm this trigger.

And people tend not to want to talk openly about what bothers them and give indirect ones.

And the indirect ones don't work.

So, for example, I wouldn't like it to happen again.

It's a negative language.

It's very different from saying, I wouldn't like it to happen again, than talking about what is expected.

Look, I hope that next time we can align with the client to bring a more direct answer.

So, we change our way of speaking to bring a much clearer and more accurate result.

It's beautiful to see this happening.

How should I have learned this years ago?

All of us.

Now, it's challenging.

It's easy to speak, right, Maurício?

But when we bring this to our daily lives, we have to police ourselves too much not to get into our automatic pilot, to attack, to criticize, to talk only about what bothers me and not to have a listening, because the CNV starts from a principle that I listen respectfully, I welcome what the other one also says.

So, it's not just me saying what I need.

It's me receiving and welcoming the other one respectfully too, empathically.

Albert Mehrabian, who is also a PhD and Emeritus psychologist from the University of California, is recognized for his pioneering work on non-verbal communication.

Born in 1939, his research in the 1960s resulted in the famous rule of 7,38,55%, which highlights the relative importance of words, tone of voice and body language when expressing feelings and attitudes.

And this theory is especially significant when verbal and non-verbal messages are incongruous.

While only 7% of the emotional impact of the message is attributed to words.

That surprised me.

And 38% are derived from the tone of voice and an incredible 55% from body language and facial expressions.

So I ask you, in the current era, where digital communication has become omnipresent, the rule of Mehrabian of 7,38,55% challenges our ability to correctly interpret feelings and attitudes in a precise way.

Because many times we don't even have the image available and simply voice.

How do you believe that this rule can be adapted or applied in digital contexts, such as videoconferences, written communication, where non-verbal signals are less perceptible or totally absent?

It is a great challenge in the digital era.

The same research that considered a face-to-face conversation of this rule also did a research when we are, for example, sending an audio.

And then the rule changes.

When we don't have the opportunity to look into people's eyes, to see people, the voice has an impact of 84% and the words 16%.

So we need to understand that a beautiful speech is useless if I don't take care of my tone of voice.

Now let's go back to the videoconferences, first.

I always encourage my students, people, to open their cameras.

Maurício, today I still see many virtual meetings with people who can and have the opportunity to turn on their cameras, keeping their cameras off.

And they stop using this richness that is the language of the verbal expression, sorry, the corporal, and end up harming the quality of communication.

So the first point is to still be able to explore every moment I have the opportunity to open my camera, that I open the camera.

Because the nuances of the expression, the facial micro-expressions speak a lot.

It's okay that I don't have my whole body to explore, but I still have the richness of the look, the richness and power of the smile.

Our posture speaks a lot.

So I'm talking to you, my brain keeps reading your reactions.

So the look that the person makes, looking up, I realized that she is reflecting, she is thinking, I can see a look of doubt.

Sometimes the person shakes her head, I see that she is not agreeing.

And this reading of these micro-expressions gives us a subsidy to be able to generate a connection with the person.

So if I'm explaining and I realize that she didn't understand, I'll adjust and explain again.

So explore as much as possible with the camera on.

When we don't have this opportunity, so WhatsApp messages, there is the resource of emojis, which also help me to put an expression when my expression doesn't exist.

It works great, gives a little more lightness.

Because the simple and coldly written language will not have this expression of the voice and the facial expression.

So we put the emojis and record audios too, Maurício.

So many times it is worth a lot more an audio, and people joke, the podcast is not an audio of 3, 4 minutes.

They are direct audios, they are objective, but my voice, it passes the feeling.

And when the person, there are people who hate to send audios, so it just stays in the written language.

She has to know that she will lose a lot of the feeling.

And who is receiving, if I'm reading a message and I woke up one day, that I'm in a bad mood, that I'm irritated, the tendency is to read a message and mix it with my feelings is huge.

So in a little while the person made a comment.

As a joke, I read it as if it were an offense.

And then we know that there are big communication problems and noises.

So we managed to explore as much as possible.

Remembering that this research by Merapian has already been criticized by other authors.

But, Maurício, I see that it makes a lot of sense, because our most primitive language is the language of the body and the voice.

The baby, for example, we all grow up, and until one year old we express ourselves with the body and with the cry, which is nothing more than with the voice.

Our words only appear after a year of age.

So our brain is programmed more primitively to connect and encode these non-verbal messages.

So, for example, I receive a gift.

I can say with my best words, I loved it, how beautiful.

But sometimes our facial expression gives us away, because it's very difficult for us to lie by facial expression.

The same thing with the tone of voice.

We call someone and I ask, how are you?

Are you okay?

Oh, yes, everything is great today, it's wonderful.

The words said that everything is great, that it's wonderful.

But the tone of voice makes the person unconsciously know and be sure that it's not.

It's terrible.

Because the voice doesn't lie, the body doesn't lie.

With words it's easy for us to lie, with words it's easier.

It's very interesting.

This may explain the communication that pet owners experience with kittens or puppies.

It's the communication between the animal and the person.

Yes.

I've had it in the past and I would say he understood me, I understood him.

It was a non-verbal communication, but it happened.

People say, you just need to talk.

Exactly.

You just need to talk, because we communicate, just not in words.

But that's it, our brain is programmed for this more instinctive language, which is non-verbal language.

We need to pay more attention.

And when I see, for example, I prepare a lot of people to make impact presentations, and I see that people dedicate most of the time, preparation and energy, to the content.

And I hear a lot, Maurício, people saying, when I have the domain of the content, I speak very well.

But unfortunately it's not like that.

Even if we have the domain of the content, it's not enough to bring an adequate content, if my posture is not communicating security, if my voice is not communicating this security, clarity and certainty.

So, I always say, pay attention not only to what you are talking about, but how the expression, the way of communicating is essential.

The authentic expression in a professional environment, it is an essential pillar for this communication to be effective.

And the healthy work relationships.

Could you elucidate the concept of authentic expression and highlight the initial steps that the individual can take to cultivate these professional interactions?

Yes, it is important for me when authentic communication refers to genuine, true, transparent communication.

It is important to differentiate the sincerity of the famous sincerity, Maurício.

Because people often take this to the other side.

I am authentic, I am sincere, I say what I think.

But authenticity also requires that I think before I speak.

I must be authentic, sincere and transparent.

But this does not mean that I can say anything without thinking.

So, it is getting out of passivity.

I can and must be authentic.

I must manifest myself in a clear, direct way.

But I can't get to the other side of the aggression.

So, people get confused a lot.

I also hear them say, Deborah, we often have to be aggressive, we have to be incisive to make our ideas count.

No, we don't need to be aggressive to make our ideas count.

We need to find the ideal way, and it exists, to choose the best words to express this authenticity, to control my tone of voice when I am expressing myself, and I want to have this freedom, this autonomy of expression.

And for what?

To make the other person understand me.

Communication needs to have a result on the other side.

Communication is not what you say, it is what the other person understands.

So, there is no point in speaking without filtering everything you think if the other person on the other side does not receive it well.

So, authenticity goes through this, through the result I have, through the freedom to express myself in an adequate way.

I see that, in general, we are hostages of the emotional reflex that affects us at a given moment, and the reaction is based on this feeling, and not exactly on the fact, specifically, abstracting from the personality, as you said before, at the beginning, that we have the habit of giving less focus to the subject and consider more personal.

More personal, exactly.

And this affects emotions too much.

Too much, and one of the assumptions for an assertive communication is this ability to manage our emotions.

And for me, Maurício, this is one of the biggest challenges for people, and I include myself too, because at the moment when the person uses a trigger that touches me deeply and that I get offended, that takes me seriously, it is an instinctive reaction of our brain.

I felt attacked automatically, the limbic system, for a matter of protection, will want to defend itself.

So, it is that reaction of taking a side, of defense or attack, and we have to deal with our animal instinct.

At the same time that I have the limbic system, which is my most primitive system that works to protect me, we have a brain that is more evolved, which is the prefrontal cortex.

So, I need to get out and control my instinctive reaction and bring it to the rational.

And, many times, how do we do that?

In this management of emotions?

Breathing, waiting, counting to ten, bringing it to the rational part and not totally emotional for that reaction of defense or attack.

It is challenging, very challenging.

There is a quote that maybe explains, or at least describes this problem, that what affects you, dominates you.

Exactly.

And we end up becoming a hostage of that.

Yes, which are the triggers you mentioned, what affects a certain feeling, some contrarity, right?

They generate an instantaneous trigger, intuitive and instantaneous.

And the cool thing is to look, now thinking about non-violent communication, to look and identify what affects me and why it is affecting me, and understand that I had an expectation that was not met.

Self-knowledge is extremely important for me to be able to manage my emotions and be able to bring this constructive, respectful and empathic communication.

Feedback, or constructive feedback, is vital for growth and improvement within any organization.

Could you define what characterizes constructive feedback and provide some concrete examples of how it can be effectively given and received?

And still, if possible, any strategy that you would recommend for professionals to develop and improve these skills, both to offer and to accept feedback or return to the workplace?

The first point is to understand that feedback is not a dialogue, sorry, it is not a monologue, it is a dialogue, so it is a two-way street.

We have to deconstruct some ideas that have been left behind, that feedback, you speak, the person accepts, leaves quietly and that's it.

No, feedback is an exchange, and it is based on facts.

I look at the attitude, I don't look at the person, I don't want to change the way the person is.

Feedback is about an action, about something concrete, so it has to be very specific, it can't be generic.

People generalize and use words like you live or never always, everything you say, you never listen to me, you live complaining or you are always late.

I forget this generalization and look at the fact and bring the fact in a specific way.

So, instead of saying you live being late, I bring concrete facts.

Look, I noticed that this week you arrived three days late, Monday, Tuesday and Thursday.

What happened?

Then comes another extremely important step.

I investigate, I ask a question, I propose a self-assessment, I return from the beginning that I don't know everything, sometimes my perception may be wrong.

So, instead of attacking, you are very negligent, you are not interested in your work, you live being late.

I will bring, look, what happened that in these meetings, in the last meetings, you arrived 15 minutes late.

Then the person, with self-assessment, with my question, feedback, also the art of asking questions, I investigate if the person had a good reason that I didn't know.

Soon she says, look, I have the car to fix, so I'm taking the bus, this week I took the bus and the bus was late.

So, bring the questions and then talk about the impact, the relevance of this.

So, show the person the impact that that action, which is not adequate, is causing.

Because sometimes the person does something wrong and she has no idea of the impact that caused it.

This is for those people who repeatedly make mistakes, make mistakes, be late, and it seems that they will never change.

Maybe you need to show the impact that that action, done in that inappropriate way, is generating.

That is generating, it is leaving the client dissatisfied, it is generating financial damage, it is generating redraft.

So, this is another very important question to bring to the feedback.

It cannot be based on criticism, it cannot be based on judgments, and it is what I often see.

Another feedback question is a technique that was used in the past and that today makes no sense, at least in my opinion, which is the sandwich feedback.

The sandwich feedback is the person praising, then comes the criticism, and then she praises again.

It is like a bite and a blow, you know?

For some time, when people did not know this technique, it even worked.

But nowadays, if the person understands this as I will praise to ameliorate a little, and then I will criticize, and then I will praise again for the person to be happy.

They know that this is a mere technique.

It stops exploring the positive feedback, which is very valuable.

So, when I give a positive feedback, simply just to criticize later, the person does not take that into consideration.

So, a simple tip.

Do you want to talk about something positive and do you also want to talk about something negative in the same conversation?

Take more.

So, for example, your delivery to client X was very good, but the more deconstructs this validation and this positive feedback.

So, look, I would like to tell you that I really liked the way you attended this client with a lot of attention and sending all the materials he needed at the right time.

It was very good, congratulations.

There is another point that I would like to bring up.

So, there is another point, and beyond that, there is another situation that I would like to bring up and talk about.

Do you realize that it is different?

So, I validate and then, beyond that, without the more.

This gives a very good result.

Use words or use a positive language that focuses on the solution, Maurício.

People give feedback, for example, we cannot lose contact with this client.

We cannot lose contact.

There is no and there is to lose.

You are not taking her brain to an action.

The word no in the brain does not make much sense and has no meaning.

So, it is more like the question of losing the negative language.

What is more assertive to say?

Do we need to keep in touch with this client?

Instead of saying, you cannot be late, I focus on the positive language and bring the solution.

You need more punctuality.

You need to arrive every day at 8 in the morning.

I make my expectations clear and I bring the solution.

So, these are adjustments that we make in the language, taking care of the tone of voice, looking into the eye, that open a space for a dialogue without resistance, where there is more receptivity and more collaboration.

So, there are many nuances that we need to take care of and that give an incredible result.

I think our nature asks us to receive feedback.

It is a way of attesting if the path is being tracked correctly or not, if it needs detours or not.

I think there are many leaders who sin by not giving feedback to their leaders.

It is true, Maurício.

I remember a speech once.

I was talking to a person and she said, I would like my boss to tell me anything, even if he cursed me, but to say that my work is a drug.

But I would like to hear something.

So, people feel like it is a neglect, an indifference.

Yes.

I remember it to this day.

I want him to tell me it is a drug, but at least I want to hear from him if it is adequate or not.

This is your field of domain, it is instigating and necessary.

I would even say that, as I said before, it should be a school subject.

It should be.

And it should be a recurring activity of training in companies.

True, it is true.

I think that the vast majority of human resources departments, which are theoretically responsible for bringing solutions that improve the quality of work for everyone, they sin and don't even touch on this subject.

I really think it is a very relevant subject.

And now I remembered, speaking of feedback and how important it is, people always associate the word feedback with the negative.

I'm going to give you feedback.

So, the person already receives it and gets tense and nervous.

But reinforcing the importance of positive feedback in relationships, in the conversation of parents and children, in the area of education, not only in the corporate area.

The Gartner Group, the Gallup Institute, has already done several researches relating high-performance teams with positive feedback.

And they found that there is a ratio of 6 to 1.

In high-performance teams, there were 6 positive feedbacks to 1 negative.

So, look how interesting it is to deconstruct that idea that I have to call whenever there is a criticism.

No, we need to call when there is something positive and relevant that the person did.

Sometimes it's two sentences.

Look, let me give you a feedback.

Congratulations, this job was very good for this, for that, for that.

And it worked.

And this elevates self-confidence, self-esteem of people, it generates much more engaged teams.

So, for leaders who want to build high-performance teams, value the positive feedback a lot.

And don't stay only with the negative feedback, even if it is constructive, which is important.

But look a little more at this issue of the more positive look.

Certainly.

Well, Débora, we have arrived at PingaFogo, which is a session where I awaken what can be our own essence, which transforms ideas into reality.

These are three questions that I ask all the guests.

The first one.

What are the virtues of a successful entrepreneur?

A successful entrepreneur, Maurício, needs to have, first, self-responsibility, which is to know that the good and the bad results don't depend externally on the system, on my colleague who didn't do it, he doesn't victimize himself, he is self-responsible and seeks what he wants.

Persistence is important because entrepreneurship is not easy.

We think, many times, people who start, or who would like to enterprise, think, oh, I'm going to be the owner of my business, and then I'll have free time.

No, we need to go after it, and it's hard.

So persistence is important, because the result doesn't always come that a person who is working as an employee has the salary at the end of the month, we have to go after it.

It is to have the focus of the client, to see the client's need and bring solutions that add value to my client.

So, before I want to have results and profit, I have to understand that I need to serve someone, I need to solve someone's problems, and that's what will bring me results.

So, for me, these are very important characteristics for those who want to be successful entrepreneurs.

What differentiates dreamers from doers?

Action, the ability to act.

There are people who dream, dream, dream, but don't put it into practice.

And action doesn't need to do great deeds, right, Maurício?

It's doing 1%, but very well done, that 1% every day.

That's what will bring your achievements.

And the last one, what is design?

This is a challenge to talk about design for you, right, Maurício?

But I'll tell you what comes to mind when I hear the word design.

For me, design is a creation, it involves the development of a product or a strategy with a purpose, that solves, that also meets a need.

I see design as something that unites functionality with beauty, I don't know if I'm talking nonsense, but it comes a lot to the issue of aesthetics too, and together with functionality.

So that's what this word design comes to me.

Perfect, very well.

We now enter, Débora, into one of our most appreciated sessions, which is the indication of readings.

Which books impacted your trajectory?

So, I have many books, and it was difficult for me to select, because I won't be talking a lot, but I have my favorites, and I'll show you my favorite books.

Well, first I'll talk about my son, Comunicação Assertiva, A Arte de Falar e Influenciar, which were many years of experience that I tried to compile, bringing a lot of study, a lot of research, with my practical part that I bring to help people have this clearer, more authentic, more respectful communication.

So it's a book that I bring theory and many practical issues.

Do you bring techniques that people can apply in their professional day-to-day?

Many techniques, in a very simple language, what I receive as feedback, the most frequent is that it's an easy, accessible reading book, and it has many practical tips, strategies.

It's not a book just about theory and concepts.

For those who want to speak well in public, to make impactful presentations, this is a book that I love, by Carmine Gallo, Ted Falar, Convencer e Emocionar.

Look, it's all here, I really like to mark the books.

And this is a book that I loved, because it makes a reading of Ted Talks' lectures, which is that amazing channel of lectures that has a short duration, but a high impact.

And it analyzes the lectures that were most successful.

And he also interviewed and studied how people prepared themselves to make those lectures of great impact.

And it brings here many rich strategies and gives us many insights, many.

So, I strongly suggest, for those who want to work on oratory and impact presentations, this book, Ted Falar, Convencer e Emocionar.

I was already awoken by the intellectual curiosity in the book.

Oh, it's fantastic, very good.

Another book here is called Essentialism, by Greg MacKill.

He says, Essentialism, the disciplined seeks for less.

This is a book that I recommend for people who don't know how to say no.

For people who want to embrace the world, who want to help everyone, and don't have productivity, don't have focus.

So, the person does what is important to them, and does many other things for not being able to give up and say no to what is not essential.

So, it's a book that helps you manage time, productivity, and say no.

So, it's a liberating book.

Another book that I recommend for leaders, when I talk about leadership and assertive communication, is the book by Márcio Fernandes, who is a leader, who used to work as president of Electro, and today he left Electro and talks about his management formula, which is called Profit Happiness.

He shows how he created teams, where, in his management, they were in the Great Place to Work, in the first place, for five years.

It's amazing how he made people engage.

They were in the Great Place to Work, 96% of people happy working in companies.

He shows how communication is one of the great skills, and he used it.

He left the chair of president, that president's office, to deal with people, listen to people, and he shows that happy people work better and bring more results, and communication is in that formula.

Another book about non-verbal language, body language, is by Joey Navarro, Non-Verbal Intelligence.

He puts the secrets of an FBI agent to decipher people without using words.

So he makes a very interesting reading about non-verbal language.

He puts their experience investigating people, and he shows how important it is to observe each one and not put everyone in the same bag.

So, for example, the person has their arms crossed.

Instead of immediately judging how resistant the person is, I have to understand if their natural way is like this.

He starts from the principle that I first meet the person when they are relaxed, and then I identify the signs of discomfort.

So it's a very interesting book.

Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton and Sheila Hinn talk about difficult conversations.

A wonderful book full of sensational strategies to deal with conflicts, difficult conversations.

He also talks a lot about strategies and wonderful techniques.

The Bible of non-violent communication, by Marshall Rosenberg.

If you want to improve your relationships, you need to read this wonderful book.

To bring results, we talked about the entrepreneur, the doer and the dreamer.

The Power of Action, by Paulo Vieira.

He also takes everyone out of their comfort zone.

We read this book, we get tears in our eyes when we get out of the role and put it into action.

A wonderful book.

And lastly, I love it.

Starts with the Why, by Simon Sinek.

He shows how companies and leaders can engage and inspire people.

And here, it's very interesting that he clearly talks about the importance of being able to communicate our purpose.

That it's with a good purpose that people will engage.

And there's a sentence from...

That sentence from...

Who has a good why, faces any how.

I think it's from Nietzsche.

Exactly.

And then...

The psychiatrist who survived a concentration camp...

Ah, Viktor Frankl.

Viktor Frankl later brought this sentence, exactly.

So, who has a good why, faces any how.

Leaders need to communicate their purpose very well, the why of that action, the main purpose of the company to engage very well.

So, this is very valid.

These are my favorites.

What an excellent list of recommendations.

Some I already have and I've read, but the others I will certainly go after.

It will be a very pleasant reading.

A message for those who watch us.

To make it easier for everyone to access, we make available the links of these books directly in the description.

In addition, I invite you to explore our book section on the podbrand.design website.

There we have a curatorship with more than 250 books recommended by all our guests.

Be sure to check it out, and the link is also in the description.

Deborah, I still have the question from our previous guest, Ana Reta Moura.

She is a psychologist, pedagogue and author of four books in this area, and who was recently on the podbrand.

She asked this question without knowing that you would be our next guest.

So, we are living very difficult times in the world.

How have you dealt with the inversion of values ​​in the world?

This is a deep question.

Very deep.

What am I looking for?

I try not to give up my values, which for me are innegotiable values, such as ethics, respect for people, family is a very strong value for me, following God, not religion, but God is a value that is above everything else.

Empathy.

We need it today in this world where machines are taking over, where communication via social networks is also taking over people's minds.

The human value is very important.

So, I try to shield myself with these values and passing these values ​​on to my daughters as well.

We need to protect ourselves from everything that is happening today in the world.

Very well.

And if you could ask a single question to our next guest, what would it be?

So, I ask the question, what does the next guest believe that artificial intelligence cannot replace?

Very good, interesting.

A pertinent question.

Very well, Deborah.

It was an honor to have you today at POD Brand, to have your presence.

I thank you very much for joining us and engaging in our purpose, which is to help people reach their best version.

Thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for this master class.

I thank you, Maurício.

It was very good, you brought extremely important points for us to be able to talk and bring to people, for people to think and reflect a little on their day-to-day.

Thank you very much for the opportunity.

Success at POD Brand.

Very well, see you soon.

To continue being inspired and exploring more stories of transformation and growth, visit our website, podbrand.design, where you will find all the episodes and the curatorship of the books recommended by Deborah and all other guests.

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See you in the next episode, here at Podbrand, the Design Podcast.